Lapidaryforum.net

Gadgets, Gizmos, and Dohickeys => Fixing, Modifying and Refurbishing your Lapidary Equipment => Topic started by: Rei on November 22, 2016, 06:55:34 PM

Title: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on November 22, 2016, 06:55:34 PM
I purchased a vibrating lap on Ebay which turned out to be a poor purchase.  It turned out to be 15" rather than 20"; the 5 trays turned out to be 2 trays and 3 lids; and most importantly, the motor was in bad shape, to the point that it had a hole rusted in it.  I got a partial refund, but most of the costs to me were import costs, so it didn't help much.

Still, it ran fine for about four weeks or so, but then the motor gave out.  Now I need to replace it.  I've removed the old motor (had to cut the weight off the motor shaft to fully get it apart) and am trying to figure out what sort of motor to put in its place.  Shape of the motor doesn't matter; I can weld.  I just need something approximately matched to the task.  But there's no writing on the motor, so I don't know its wattage or RPM.  What sort of wattage and RPM should I be targeting, do you think?
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: catmandewe on November 23, 2016, 04:04:29 PM
What brand of lap?
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on November 24, 2016, 11:08:33 AM
What brand of lap?

I don't know, the info is worn off.  Would it make a difference?  I can just weld whatever motor onto the assembly.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: jakesrocks on November 24, 2016, 11:27:38 AM
Can you post a pic of your flat lap ? One of us should be able to ID it for you. If it's an old Highland Park, Diamond Pacific is now producing those & will have direct replacement motors.

Since flat lap motors are mounted vertical, they have special thrust bearings. A normal motor that mounts horizontal would work for a while, but the weight of the motor armature would wear out the bearings after a few months of use.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on November 24, 2016, 02:48:07 PM
Can you post a pic of your flat lap ? One of us should be able to ID it for you. If it's an old Highland Park, Diamond Pacific is now producing those & will have direct replacement motors.

Since flat lap motors are mounted vertical, they have special thrust bearings. A normal motor that mounts horizontal would work for a while, but the weight of the motor armature would wear out the bearings after a few months of use.

Thanks for the offer to ID it  :)

It's been taken apart, so here are the pieces:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54125007@N08/31185883256/in/datetaken/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/54125007@N08/30414141853/in/datetaken/

Sorry for the lighting in the latter one; it's in my plant room and the LED lights always wash out images.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on November 28, 2016, 07:25:21 PM
Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on December 18, 2016, 11:13:05 AM
Nothing?  :(  I've been waiting hoping to hear back from you.

Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: jakesrocks on December 18, 2016, 11:28:05 AM
Sorry, family emergency kept me away for a while.

Never seen one quite like yours. but looking at the pics I'll bet these balls & springs will work. http://www.ebay.com/itm/LORTONE-FL15-FL20-FLAT-LAP-SPRING-BALL-KIT-NEW-/192042804514?hash=item2cb6a4a522:m:m7QVnE6nWpnDIUSbtti9SRA

For the motor, look at replacement motors for some of the flat laps still being sold. I'll bet a Covington or Lortone flat lap motor would work with a little tweaking.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: 55fossil on December 18, 2016, 01:34:49 PM
   Looks like an old 1/3 HP wash machine motor. Try looking up another name brand vibrator and see what motor they use. You can usually find a parts list on the internet for new machines. It should tell you the HP and RPM's on the sales or parts index. I have an 18 inch machine that is ancient. While I agree with jakesrocks about the motor ...  my lap has a standard type of motor snatched from the trash. It has worked fine for years. Guess I am too cheap, but free or almost free is often worth a shot.  Neal
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on December 20, 2016, 07:27:58 PM
Thanks both of you!  I'll look into both options over Christmas - can't wait to have it up and polishing again!  :)
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: jakesrocks on December 20, 2016, 08:23:31 PM
Referencing Fossils post, most top loading washing machines have the motor mounted vertical. They have the thrust bearings needed for something like a vibrating lap. Front loading washing machines have a horizontal mounted motor & lack the thrust bearings. Lots of old washing machines laying around in dumps with perfectly good motors. They have a heavy duty power cord too, so salvage that while you're at it. And I've always wondered if there was a use for the water pump in them.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on April 02, 2017, 03:41:52 PM
So, surprisingly, this issue hasn't been resolved after all this time  :(

So, I started out first trying to get a top loader washing machine here. Turns out, top loading washing machines don't exist her. At all. I'd never seen one; apparently that wasn't just a coincidence.

So I talked to Kingsley North. They were concerned that I might not get a motor that would work with my lap (even though I assured them I could cut/weld any attachments as needed), and had me go investigate better. I'm now 95% sure it's a 15" Beacon star.  They told me to go to Barranca / MK Diamond, that they had bought Beacon Star.

I contacted Beacon Star. They said that's not true, that they didn't buy Beacon Star, and recommended I try Grainger.

I sent Grainger an email (but what would they know about what motor works with a Beacon Star lap?). I didn't get a response. I sent Kingsley North another email. I didn't get a response.

Disheartened, and with another project taking up my time, I've let this fall to the backburner for a while, and my lap has been idle ever since.  But I really should try to get it back up and running. If you were in my situation, what would you do?  Start googling "Junkyards in America" and contact random ones to see which have top loading washing machine motors and would be willing to ship, so that I can then get a motor that I can weld on and run through a power converter? I don't know what's the right solution here...
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: TRG on April 04, 2017, 12:33:05 AM
Call Diamond Pacific for parts .. they bought out the company and are very helpful. I just got parts for my saw of the same brand
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on April 07, 2017, 11:47:46 AM
Call Diamond Pacific for parts .. they bought out the company and are very helpful. I just got parts for my saw of the same brand

Thanks, will do that!  :)  I bet they were confusing MK Diamond with Diamond Pacific.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on April 07, 2017, 02:48:40 PM
Call Diamond Pacific for parts .. they bought out the company and are very helpful. I just got parts for my saw of the same brand

Thanks, will do that!  :)  I bet they were confusing MK Diamond with Diamond Pacific.

Wow, $275 for a new one? Geez....
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Jhon P on April 07, 2017, 02:54:35 PM
Is there a nameplate on the motor? If there is a manufacturer and catalog number you can give that to Graingers and it can be cross referenced. Of if it has the frame number, up, shaft size. Ect it can be looked up. Or do like what was already talked about find an old washing motor with the same shaft size and modify it to fit. Than sell it and set up a dry sander like I did!
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on April 07, 2017, 03:55:09 PM
Is there a nameplate on the motor? If there is a manufacturer and catalog number you can give that to Graingers and it can be cross referenced. Of if it has the frame number, up, shaft size. Ect it can be looked up. Or do like what was already talked about find an old washing motor with the same shaft size and modify it to fit. Than sell it and set up a dry sander like I did!

As mentioned, the label is long since worn off; the existing motor is a piece of junk that's so rusty that it's shed pieces of its casing (I have no clue what the last owner did with the thing to get it in such bad shape). And they don't sell top-loading washing machines here - at all.  I could always just google "Junkyard" and start clicking on random ones and asking them if they have top loading washing machine motors and if they'd ship to Iceland  ;)

I'm trying to think of how I could ask Diamond Pacific for the manufacturer and catalog number of the motor they're talking about selling without giving up the game that I'd just be using it to shop around  ;)

Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: hummingbirdstones on April 07, 2017, 07:43:34 PM
Rei,

Call Tim at CigarBox Rocks:  541-280-5574 – Tim, or fill out their contact us page:  http://cigarboxrock.com/contact-us/  and see if he can't tell you what type of replacement motor to get.  Tell him you're in Iceland.  They restore old equipment.  I bet he can tell you what replacement motor will work with it.  They're very helpful over there.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on April 08, 2017, 12:06:32 PM
Thanks, I'll do just that!  :)

Ed: ... or not, the site seems to be broken  :(
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: hummingbirdstones on April 08, 2017, 04:20:32 PM
Strange -- it's working for me.   Try again and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on April 08, 2017, 05:03:11 PM
Have now tried Firefox, Chrome, and tried to load it on my cell phone as well.  All  only:

 "Sorry, your request cannot be accepted.

« Back"

Doesn't matter whether I go to the contact page or the main page.  :(

Is there an email address or something?  Of course, I'll have to just hope that that doesn't bounce either  ;)
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: hummingbirdstones on April 08, 2017, 08:07:49 PM
I can't find an email address anywhere.  I always call him.  I will call him on Monday and ask the question for you.   :icon_sunny:
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on April 09, 2017, 12:03:30 PM
I can't find an email address anywhere.  I always call him.  I will call him on Monday and ask the question for you.   :icon_sunny:

Thank you so much, that's so nice of you!  :)
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on April 11, 2017, 01:13:21 PM
Hi - did you ever have a chance to call?  :)
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on April 20, 2017, 01:43:28 PM
:(  Website still seems to be down for me.  I wonder if they have a block on Iceland for some reason?
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Jhon P on April 20, 2017, 02:47:29 PM
Donate it to someone and set up a dry sander
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: hummingbirdstones on April 20, 2017, 04:55:02 PM
Hi Rei,

Sorry, no, I haven't had a chance yet.  Work all of a sudden got insane, but I will have time to do it tomorrow morning.  PROMISE!
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Steve Ramsdell on April 20, 2017, 09:11:54 PM
Lets try this.  Google Lortone FL15.  See if that is yours.  If it is you can get the drawings from a pdf.  They don't list the motor size, but Lortone is still in business and yoou can contact them for more info.  Do you still have the offset weight?
Steve
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Grayco on April 21, 2017, 06:26:11 AM
Lets try this.  Google Lortone FL15.  See if that is yours.  If it is you can get the drawings from a pdf.  They don't list the motor size, but Lortone is still in business and yoou can contact them for more info.  Do you still have the offset weight?
Steve
Lortone is still in business, however the old FL15 motors are no longer available.  The motors were made by A. O. Smith and are no longer produced.  I'm still working on finding a motor that can be modified to fit that application.  It's not easy to find a 1/6 HP motor with good quality ball bearings.
The one I have apart is possibly repairable.  I have replaced the bearings (the shaft was a little loose on the bearing so I staked it to tighten it up).  The upper bearing journal is also loose.  I may use JB weld to tighten it up. 
With these fixes, the motor will run again, but I don't expect a long life out of the fixes.
I'm looking at alternatives.  There are a lot of the old FL15s and FL20s with that same motor.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: hummingbirdstones on April 22, 2017, 04:36:16 PM
Rei,

Just wanted to let you know that I tried calling Tim on Friday and got his voicemail, so I left him a message to call me.  I'm sure he'll call me Monday, but if not then I'll call him again.   :icon_sunny:
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on April 24, 2017, 02:37:20 PM
Lets try this.  Google Lortone FL15.  See if that is yours.  If it is you can get the drawings from a pdf.  They don't list the motor size, but Lortone is still in business and yoou can contact them for more info.  Do you still have the offset weight?
Steve

Nope - as mentioned, I've become pretty convinced it's a 15" beacon star.  Everything matches:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IuyZNgBsozg/hqdefault.jpg

(except for of course the feet, but those are just blocks of wood that were added on in place of the feet for some unknown reason)

I do have the weight - I had to cut it off the shaft, but I figured I'd just weld it back on whatever motor I get if it doesn't have a weight of its own.  Would a lortone motor work in a beacon star?

Quote
Rei,

Just wanted to let you know that I tried calling Tim on Friday and got his voicemail, so I left him a message to call me.  I'm sure he'll call me Monday, but if not then I'll call him again.   :icon_sunny:

Thank you!!!  :)
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: hummingbirdstones on April 24, 2017, 04:42:22 PM
Rei,

It's going to be a couple of days before I can talk to Tim.  He's out of town.  I'll keep trying.   :icon_sunny:
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: hummingbirdstones on April 24, 2017, 05:07:03 PM
Ok, Tim called me back.

Here's the deal:  He said the Beacon Star is one of the companies that there's hardly no information on.  BUT, he said if you had a company to take/send the old motor to, they would be able to tell you what you need to replace it.  There's just no way for him to say without actually seeing the motor.

Is there a company nearer to you that supplies motors that you can send it to?  Tim suggested Grainger might be a good place for you to start.  They are international and might be more cost effective for you to deal with.  https://www.grainger.com/content/worldwide

He said you could always call him or send the motor to him to look at and he could give you a quote, but I think if I were you, I'd contact Grainger first.

Hope this helps somehow.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Grayco on April 25, 2017, 07:33:42 AM
In selecting a motor be certain the motor has good quality ball bearings in the drive end.  If you use a motor with bronze bushings, it will not survive long.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on April 26, 2017, 06:13:56 PM
Ok, Tim called me back.

Here's the deal:  He said the Beacon Star is one of the companies that there's hardly no information on.  BUT, he said if you had a company to take/send the old motor to, they would be able to tell you what you need to replace it.  There's just no way for him to say without actually seeing the motor.

Is there a company nearer to you that supplies motors that you can send it to?

I live on a large rock in the middle of the North Atlantic.  ;)  So no.

You can pick up random motors at random stores. Apart from that, it's special orders from overseas, and you better know what you need.

Quote
Tim suggested Grainger might be a good place for you to start.  They are international and might be more cost effective for you to deal with.  https://www.grainger.com/content/worldwide

He said you could always call him or send the motor to him to look at and he could give you a quote, but I think if I were you, I'd contact Grainger first.

Do you know what it costs to send a big chunk of steel and copper overseas just to get it inspected?  :(  My mother spent something like $500 to ship this lap to me.  (I'm sure you can see why I was... let's just say more than a little disappointed when I saw that it wasn't at all like advertised  :Þ  )

I can certainly call Grainger, but I'll need to know what to tell them.

(thank you very much for calling Tim though!)
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: hummingbirdstones on April 26, 2017, 06:34:12 PM
Wow.  And there are no shops on that rock that fix small motors or anything like that that could open it up and tell you what you need to replace it?

Dang, that sucks.   :sad5:

Wish I could have helped more.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: lapidaryrough on April 26, 2017, 07:12:17 PM
https://www.grainger.com/category/motors/ecatalog/N-bii/?cm_mmc=PPC:+MSN+PPC&s_kwcid=AL!2966!10!8956457157!62050107308&ef_id=WJEjQwAAAdLN23a-:20170427020155:s

   All lapidary toys are made from standard  parts. keeps the cost down.

    Your motor cost in last tread is what i pay for a farm duty 1 Hp.

    Grainger should have a motor to fit your application needed.

  shop in the right store for the best savings.

    Signed trades maintenance for life.

 
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Steve Ramsdell on April 26, 2017, 07:34:26 PM
Here is something to try before you pay for shipping the motor to grainger.
https://www.grainger.com/category/motors/ecatalog/N-bii?gclid=CMOwwvbKw9MCFYa4wAodPzAB_A&cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PPC&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!190596790792!e!!g!!grainger%20supply&ef_id=WPEYrwAABYvLLN47:20170427022622:s  (Just copy and paste into your browser)
That is the site on grainger's page that has motormatch selection guide.  You might be able to find something here.  Most Beacon star motors that I remember were not fancy.  I did look up replacements for the motor you listed for lortone A O Smith 1/6 hp  (just type into your search bar) and you will get other choices.  If you can find a model by matching on grainger you can also do a search for replacement.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Grayco on April 26, 2017, 09:36:27 PM

OK, You can't find a motor locally and they are really expensive to ship to you..
How bad is the original motor?  Are the windings still OK?  If the windings are OK you can probably resurrect it. New bearings, staking shafts and journals and of course epoxy like JB weld where they are made up of 90% metal. No telling how long these fixes will last.  Vibrators are really rough on bearings, shafts and journals.

Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on April 30, 2017, 04:01:43 PM

OK, You can't find a motor locally and they are really expensive to ship to you..
How bad is the original motor?  Are the windings still OK?  If the windings are OK you can probably resurrect it. New bearings, staking shafts and journals and of course epoxy like JB weld where they are made up of 90% metal. No telling how long these fixes will last.  Vibrators are really rough on bearings, shafts and journals.

It doesn't seem to be possible to open up by normal means; I'd have to cut the casing off.  At least the rust has already started that process  ;)  I had at one point had a theory that perhaps the motor had gotten clogged up by clay, but the shaft spins freely, so I don't think that's the problem; my best bet is some sort of short. I can't assess the winding state with the casing on, apart from to say that clearly at least something is making it throw breakers when I plug it in (and it doesn't spin either).  I can see a bit of the windings (I think its windings) through the ventilation holes - enough to see that they look rather iffy (tarnished / dirty, maybe even "bent"), but not well enough to be able to tell if they're burned out.

Quote
Your motor cost in last tread is what i pay for a farm duty 1 Hp.

Does that mean it's expensive or it's cheap?

Both of the grainger links posted in this thread go to the same page for me - the motor selector page, of which I don't know what I'm supposed to punch in, as my motor has no writing on it (probably did at some point in the distant past).

Quote
Most Beacon star motors that I remember were not fancy. I did look up replacements for the motor you listed for lortone A O Smith 1/6 hp  (just type into your search bar) and you will get other choices.

I don't know what you mean. Typing in "BeaconStar" in the search bar yields no results. Typing "Beacon Star" in the search bar yields things that aren't motors. Typing "lortone A O Smith 1/6 hp" yields "Motor, 3 HP, 460V, 5/8 In. Double Shaft" for $1,275.00 and "Motor 1/2HP 200-230/460V 60Hz 3Ph 1Spd" for $543.50. Punching in the model cited by Diamond Pacific as a possible replacement (690-42-5000) yielded nothing. Tried looking up the model on Diamond Pacific's catalogue... but it says nothing about the motor apart from that it's for their Double Deck lap and that it's described as "110V Motor, Cord, Switch".  :Þ  Let's see... cross-referencing the Double Deck lap with their website I see that it has a 1/8 hp motor. Although that's certainly not enough information to fill out the Grainger motor-finder page.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Jhon P on April 30, 2017, 05:08:10 PM
If it wasn't for the shipping I could fix you up with a vibration lap. I think it is 15" has two or three pans.  I sold it to a friend and now he doesn't use it. I could go
Take a picture of the motor. I could dissemble it and just ship the motor? I don't remember what brand it is. $150.00 for a used motor?
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on May 05, 2017, 04:19:20 PM
If it wasn't for the shipping I could fix you up with a vibration lap. I think it is 15" has two or three pans.  I sold it to a friend and now he doesn't use it. I could go
Take a picture of the motor. I could dissemble it and just ship the motor? I don't remember what brand it is. $150.00 for a used motor?

Hey, if it works...  it's been frustrating being out of commission for months  :(  At least my project isn't in a rush (I'm polishing the specimens I've found on my land in order to make them into a mosaic countertop)

The shipping cost, BTW, if I use a reshipper (which includes the import fees) is relative to the purchase price, not the weight. So it might just be better to send the whole lap...
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Jhon P on May 05, 2017, 06:04:20 PM
I will go by and talk a picture of it and see what you think. I will pm you.  You will have to instruct me on how to shop it.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on May 08, 2017, 06:56:35 PM
Hi Jhon - I tried both emailing and PM'ing you, but didn't hear back from you.
Title: Re: Type of motor to replace on a vibrating lap?
Post by: Rei on June 10, 2017, 04:22:05 AM
So, it looks like that option didn't pan out  :Þ