Lapidaryforum.net
Gadgets, Gizmos, and Dohickeys => Fixing, Modifying and Refurbishing your Lapidary Equipment => Topic started by: robirdman on April 07, 2019, 07:00:09 AM
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It has been years since I used it and I have forgotten everything about it. Apparently the motor or wire has a problem, as it doesn't start. But the then neither of the red or black button seems to be able to be pushed in. I have a big rock in the vice and apparently cut some slabs, but I don't even remember how to move the vice back for a new slice. I had taken the belts off too and am unsure of how they went. Can someone help?
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We have an 18" Frantom, but it's probably close enough that these photos might help.
The handle at the bottom of the vise carriage is how you spread the split nuts to allow the carriage to slide.
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Thanks. I was looking at the saw again. I had mixed up the name with my combo unit. It is actually a Nelson saw. But the vise unlocks the same way and I pulled back. Blew the circuit breaker again. Maybe because the green ground is touching the metal case of a switchbox. I can't see what the wires connected to the motor are like as it is against the garage wall. As it is too heavy, I may need help to see or remove the motor though maybe I can leverage it with boards.
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The ground won’t affect it. It should be connected to the outlet box or frame.
Try taking the belt off and see if the motor spins freely and see if the blade moves freely.
If everything moves freely than you may have a short in the wiring or a bad motor
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If it blew a breaker you have some bad wiring. It could be in the motor or the switch or in the cord. The green wire is supposed to be touching the case, this is to keep you from getting electrocuted. You should probably rewire the whole thing just to be safe.
Good luck with it.............Tony
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I got a 2x4 and was able to move the saw away from the wall and access the motor. All the pulleys turn freely. Both the motor box and the switch box had no plate covering and each had the green ground floating with nothing attached. It looks like I really need to clean things up and perhaps replace the switch box and maybe wiring. But I need to make sure I know how all should be connected. In the switch box I wrapped the ground around a pair of white and black wires. Didn't test thus and don't know if this is right.
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The white and black wires should be neutral and hot. Tying them to ground should trip the breaker instantly.
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OK. I didn't try it with them connected. So that in the switch box and the loose on in the motor box, should touch their boxes, or what?
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A little more progress. Opened up the box with the power buttons for on and off and cleaned out. Everything looked OK and I can press in and out. Might not have pushed hard enough previously. Then I made sure the ground in the switch box was touching only the box and not another wire. Strange connections here. blew the circuit breaker. The ground from the power button box is wrapped to the black from it. A white and black were connected directly. And then when I noticed the cord to the motor was loose, I pulled and it didn't seem connected to anything. So I got a plug with bare wires at one end, connected directly to the motor with no switch and plugged in and the motor ran fine. So it appears all the problem is due to wrong connections in the switch box. I still don't know where the ground in the motor box picture is supposed to go, and will try googling, connecting a motor to power via a switch box to see if I can find the right way.
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Does the power cord go to the motor first or to the switch box first?
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It goes to the switch box. I thought I figured it out after watching a simpler video of connecting a motor to a switch. I screwed the ground from the motor to the box, and tested directly w/o switch box, and it ran fine. then I undid all the previous wiring in the switch box and connected all the whites together, all the blacks together and all the green. Each is a set of 3 wires, from motor, power button and power cord. Plugged in a a pop and small spark. Unplugged and went to the house, expecting the outlet circuit breaker to have flipped again, but hadn't. Back to the garage and plugged in again, no pop or anything, then pressed the power button on the saw for 1st time. Nothing happened. Back in the house, the circuit breaker had popped again.
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The green ground should be connected directly to the metal box. A screw in the back out of the way is fine. Can you post a picture of the switch, front and back.
I am having a hard time making heads or tails of your pictures. I have a frantom 18” saw but the switch just a toggle switch and my 24” saw has a magnetic starter with a stop story button. The motor runs fine so it is in the wiring or the switch
I am an electrician and electrical contractor contractor. Been doing it since I was 14. My dad was an electrician. If you were close I would come look at it. I try not to give too much advice like this because it is hard to diagnose a problem with pictures.
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I took more pictures showing:
motor box with ground screwed to box;
switch box where I connected all whites, all blacks and all grounds (wrongly?)
switch box with caps removed
on/off box with plate removed and button mechanism pulled out some
Thanks for helping.
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To switch one leg of the circuit, Tie the black from outlet to the black on the motor. Then tie the black from the switch to the white from the outlet. Then tie the white from the switch to the white from the motor. This gives you a complete circuit that should allow no short and no tripping the breaker. Make sure your greens are all tied and connected at some point to the machine.
The point being to bring the hot lead (black) to one side of the motor and the common (white) to the other side. In a perfect world, the wires to both sides of the switch would be white and thus eliminate the confusion. By hooking all the blacks together and all the whites together you are creating a dead short at the switch.
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Looks like a manual motor starter. Stone man is correct
The incoming hot ( black) connects to the white going to the starter. The black from the starter connects to the black to the motor. The incoming white connects to the white to the motor. If you are connecting all the blacks together and all the whites together you are creating a dead short through the starter. Hopefully you have not damaged the contacts in the starter. Let me see if I can draw a picture to help you
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Let’s see if this helps
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Jhon switched the hot lead and I switched the common. Either one works. I am not an electrician and he is.... Pretty sure if you follow his diagram it will run like a deer......
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Sorry I made the wrong guess before getting a reply. Originally, when I opened the switch box, the green from the motor was wrapped to its black and a white was to a black. I though maybe this was why it was shorting, and changed to the current situation. I will revise tomorrow, first testing just going from the motor to the outlet, bypassing the switch, to make sure the cord doesn't have a short where it was crimped pretty flat in the switch box clamp. I hope nothing was damaged..
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Thanks. I will follow the diagram. And all the green grounds should be capped together in the switch box - not as when I opened and the power one was capped to the black?
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Yes, tie all the ground (green) wires together and make sure one is tie to a box or the saw somewhere. No connection to a black or white wire.
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I followed the diagram and the plugged in and the saw started running immediately. But the off power button (which is chained to stop the saw ) is in = off. So the other configuration would be the right one?
I thought I sent this but came back and it was still here.
I switched to the other configuration in #13 and same result. When power switch is off, saw runs, vice-versa.
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You are going to need to check the continuity of the switch. It may be bad, or it may be hooked up wrong. Only a tester will give you the answer. They can be had for a couple of dollars.
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The switch works, but backwards. On is off and off is on. Off is connected to the chain that shuts off the saw, and the housing for the 2 buttons are different sizes, so it makes a difference. Could it be that white and black wires are reversed and then how should the connections be?
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You may need a jumper between two of the terminals. Can you see any markings. L1, L2, T1, and T2?
Or take some pictures of the switch so I can see the terminals.
I have had a busy weekend, we had company
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I just took more switch pictures and in viewing, I noticed something I hadn't before. The red is the power off, while black is on. I think I assumed the opposite when I didn't read and didn't have glasses on. And I can see the the chain is to the top, red, off button. So I think it is correct after all. But here they are anyway. Looks like careful cleaning up wouldn't hurt.
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Sounds like you are up and running! :occasion14:
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The cover or the switch is turned around, the red stop button is supposed to be in the shorter hole so you can turn it off easier in an emergency.
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Tony is right. Turn the cover over or you may have to take the switch out and change the position.
It is a single pole switch so you can’t go wrong with the connections. Get you a can of contact cleaner from the auto parts store and spray it out. You may need a drop of oil on the moving parts. Because it will wash out all of the oil. 3 in one will work
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Well I just couldn't leave well enough alone. Before putting oil in and cutting, I spent hours yesterday, vacuuming the area where it was against the garage wall, cleaning the outer saw frame, and then today repainting all. I didn't want to add to the weight of the saw before pushing it back to the wall, as it weighs about 400 pounds, and it was a mess with opossum dung and debris where it sat for years. For 2 years, I had a truck in the garage that I finally sold, so I could only access it after that was gone.
So then looking at the motor box with all these wires hanging out, I thought it would be a good idea to knock a hole in the box and put the power cable in properly, then close the box. I first propped the motor up on a cement block so I could access the area better, then placed a metal rod in and hammered out the bottom slot. I tested the motor before actually disconnecting anything, and it was OK. Then I disconnected the 3 leads, put the power cord through the bottom opening, put the ground back to the screw, and the black to white and the white to the 3 wires, as before. Then, without stuffing all the wires back in, I plugged in and nothing happened with the power switch on or off. Inside the house, I found that the circuit breaker (and not the outlet one) in the electrical box had tripped. I reset, went back to see if any wires were touching anything and moved out a little and tested again and same thing. I disconnected the motor from the switch box and connected the 3 wires to my test plug with 3 bare wires, capped and plugged in. I can't remember if there was a sound or spark, but a little smoke came out at the plug and I quickly pulled out. No circuit had broken in the house though. Looking carefully, I had noticed that it looks like I nicked a wire when I popped the circular plate out, but it wasn't touching anything. I do remember an earlier occasion in the recent rewiring and testing where the motor did not start at first and then I think I moved wires out further from the motor box, but I can't see what might be causing the problem.
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Too many wires in that black wire nut. Black on power cord to white on switch, Black from switch to black on motor, White from power cord to white on motor..
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But that is the configuration before when it worked. All I did was disconnect the wires momentarily and pass the entire cord through the bottom of the box. Green still went to the screw. I thought it strange, that black was going to white, and white to 3 others, but a comparison of the motor box on page 1 before doing this should show the same arrangement. As I then connected the cord from the motor to a wire with a plug, B-B, W-W, G-G, bypassing any switch, and got the smoke the problem is now solely in the motor and after all the progress, now it seems I will have to take it out to have looked at by a repair shop.
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I think I must just look like a sucker. I took the motor to Prompt Electric Friday. Said the mechanic wasn't in but it would probably be $50, rate is $50/hour. I left it and I would be called back. Missed the 3pm call, which was merely for me to call back, and I called Sat morning, and told the person who knew nothing to leave a message telling me what's wrong and the free estimate. I was gone and missed 4 attempts to reach me, all which were just for me to call back. So I called and someone said to call on Monday. So then was told that it was $80, the rate is $80/hour, and they replaced the wiring, put in a new capacitor and I can pick it up. But their credit card machine is down, and it's already 4pm, so I say I will do Tuesday. I call early and ask someone if they fixed the credit card machine and she says she will call back. 3 hours later I call and am told yes and I go to pick up. The motor was painted gray, saving me the trouble. He said not to open the wire box and I said I wanted to see what they did. So he obliges and I see that it is not new wiring but the same old wiring. I think they were taped instead of capped but I forgot to take a shot. It looked the same as I wired it too. but they said the capacitor was a problem. I say I was told the wiring was being replaced and he says. "What's the difference, look it runs, do you want it." 30 day warranty, I saw a replacement would be $164, but I agree and take it home, connect to the switch box again according to the diagram and get the saw running again. Now the questions. Do I have the belts on right? The one is very floppy. There is a spring loaded thing, but it barely reaches and popped off when I ran the saw. Smaller belt is too loose and floppy. I remember before I used a weight with rocks pulling down where the spring attaches to the nut, and that worked before but it is still too floppy, as in the blurry shot. Also the gear mechanism seems to be leaking. Pictures attached. I much appreciate the wiring help that worked great before till I screwed up. Just testing running, no oil or attempt to cut anything yet.