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[Debbie K]

My local club is interested in me teaching a class in gemstone carving. I was thinking of doing a really basic class where the material and tools are provided, 4 hours for 4 days, 16 hours in all. I think most of you know what I do, but if you don't dlskdesigns.com.

The club would take $15 per person per day for the cost of wear and tear on tools and electricity. The cost of the materials and tools would be north of $75. So, before I would ever get paid the cost to the student would be about $135.

I haven't taught a class in years and have no idea what the going rate is these days. Have any of you guys taken or taught any classes recently? If so, I would greatly appreciate knowing what the charge was.

It may just be that it is a prohibitively expense class for most folks, or I would have to charge so little it wouldn't be worth my while. I've been teaching folks for free because until now because they used to charge even more. I've tried explaining that the size of the class needs to be small, 4 or 5 at the most, because of the attention each student needs but they just don't seem to understand that it isn't like wirewrapping.

Any input would be really appreciated.

Debbie K

[lithicbeads]

At my local clay studio classes come out to $20 an hour  per person. This is a lot of money for some people but the reality is that things are quite expensive  and  at this rate  the expertise of the teacher is barely compensated for once again. I know a master potter and when people see the $150 price tag on his tea bowls they ask him how much time he has into the bowl . His answer varies by date but generally it is " 50 years plus 15 minutes".

[55fossil]

Debbie:   As a person who does love your work... and someone who has taken a number of classes taught by trained artists as well as people who just knew what they were doing..... IMO

    You have to think whether you want to do this as a professional and be paid like one or as a person who wants to give back to the arts. This is not about being greedy by asking for a reasonable price for your time and skills. I took Michael's jade carving instructions and was very happy with his modest charges. This required two days of travel and an overnight stay at my cost plus his fees. It was money well spent. If you charge too little everyone will want to come. Charge too much and some very talented but people who may not have the means to pay for a class of $200 or $300 may have to pass up the opportunity. With your talents you are certainly within reason to be asked a fair price for your work. This is especially true if you are one of those people who can really teach. Myself, I scare off people and am a terrible teacher. You seem to have a good temperament and enjoy people.   good luck on this decision, it is difficult

[bobby1]

Our local junior college has multiple classes for jewelry making and lapidary. The college charges $99 per semester for 12 -  3-1/2 hour sessions or 42 hours total. The instructor gets $20 per hour. She charges a $11 material fee.
I also teach specialty classes each is 3 sessions at 3 hours per session and I get $20 per hour. The college charges $49 for my classes. My classes include one that I just finished on making doublets from various materials including opal. Others include carving cabochons from the back, making creative larger cabochons that include internal curves and inlaying small round cabochons into larger cabochons. I have been asked to have a carving class that I'm considering sometime in the future.
I charge a $10 material fee
Our club, the Mother lode Mineral Society provides all the equipment, repairs and much of the supplies for the Modesto Junior College both lapidary and jewelry classrooms. 
Bob

[edgarscale]

good luck, i'm sure the decision you come up with will be the right one.

[ileney]

Debbie, I took a three day 10:00 - 5:00 cab class with Michael Boyd. It was a GREAT class. Metalwerx charged $550.00 for that or $650.00 for the advanced 4 day class. He did bring quite a bit of equipment with him ( DP carving station and I think Metalwerx had 5 genies, 2 flat laps for polishing, and 2 saws, much of it supplied by DP for demo/sales purposes, I believe. He also brought carving kits he sold to us, cabbing kits he sold to us, his excess rough and slabs and offered it for sale to us at low prices even by wholesale gemshow standards - small sized very gemmy good quality rose quartz,  lapis, kyanite, imperial topaz, optical quartz, vintage natural (not irradiated)blue topaz, some decent quality Indian ruby, etc. He explained he buys large vintage estate lots in the US or wholesale lots at the mines overseas and then after he takes out what he will use, lets his students buy it from him for basically the rate he paid for it. But obviously, this is a good way to recoup money when the lots is so good it’s worth buying the whole bit just for the top stones. Also, after the class, you could buy the genies used in the class and carveing stations at a discount. I would assume he gets a small bonus for those sales too, but don’t really know. So another way for you to make money might be to contact DP, if you haven’t already done so, and see if there is $ to be made if you demo on their equipment.  Bobby1, you are obviously doing it to help people because it sure isn’t for the money! Those are Community Service salaries. Been there, done that for school Chess club, through the town’s Community Services Department ( and donated  the salary back to the club,) but we considered it volunteer work!

[PhilNM]

Easily worth the $350 to $500 range, for just your time and effort. Club's funds additional. It's gotta be worth it to you or you'll hate and resent it.  I taught lapidary 2 days a week for almost 2 years for nothing, and I'll never do that again. Probably won't ever teach again. People don't value what you have  unless they have to pay fair price for it. Students they dumped on me were not the ones I would have accepted myself. And they made lots of $$$. I neve got as much as a penny. Also to consider, if the price is what the market is, then only those truly sincere will apply. Weed out the bad ones that will waste your time and give you a bad rep because they have no talent and just wanted something to do. Check prices at places like Hollands School in Georgia and others.  NOT cheap! I'd also tell the club my needs. I need to limit the class to 4 people. I need to  etc and stick to your guns. They respect your wishes and needs or you walk.  Charge $350 for you, and give them the list of tools they need along with where to buy them in advance, and tell them they MUST have them to take the class. Materials the can buy from you, not included in the cost of the class. Club's fees, etc should be separate from your fees.  Good Luck!

[55fossil]

Oooouch....  Sorry, I have to half disagree with PhilNM.    I have paid professional money for classes in metal smithing and carving. I also had nearly free classes in how to cut Idaho Star Garnets and how to make triplets with Idaho Opal. Some people enjoy to teach and have no care about the money. I always left some nice cutting material for the instructors and they most likely gave it out in later classes.

    There is nothing wrong with requiring a fair wage for giving classes. But just because some of the folks out there cannot afford $20 an hour plus shop fees and materials does not make them undeserving or mean they will not appreciate the class. There will always be those types you do not like in your class, whether it is free or you charge a fortune. Sometimes those folks that set in on a free class find something they will enjoy for the rest of their lives. They may not have taken the class if it was expensive.  no right, no wrong, just what makes us happy......  pretty rocks for me

remember when you were a newbie??????????????????????????????

[bobby1]

I really enjoy teaching. I have been teaching lapidary, jewelry making and casting for many years at various venues. The money is nice but not a priority for me. I get my fulfillment from the excitement the students have when something they have done turns out great. One big advantage our club has is the constant input of new members from the Junior College's classes. The college's teacher is a member of our club and she is constantly recruiting for us. Currently our club is having a significant growth in membership. We also have a fully manned dedicated membership table at our annual show. Last year it resulted in 31 new member applications two of which were individuals and the rest were families. I'm the Membership Chairman for the California Federation of Mineralogical Societies so I'm always working on ideas and programs that the member societies can use to improve their new member recruitment activities.
Bob

[PhilNM]

I started because I enjoyed it. I quit because it became a futile activity. People turning on saws and walking away, leaving them on. People plugging in and turning on equipment that you are preforming maintenance on, even after being told it was out of service. People who have no skill who ask you to do the work then go brag about hat they did. People who take advantage, people who cheat, are rude, etc etc etc.... Having to beg for replacement parts when the class "bank" was in the thousands.  Glad you guys still enjoy it, but it became a chore for me. I was very happy to no longer have to be there 2x a week, and not being allowed to take a break for a couple weeks, etc. just a bad situation. after I left, the other long time instructors also walked. Now it's a free for all and the equipment shows it.

[ileney]

It's sad when the rude students mess it up for the rest. Personally, I am happy to pay well for good classes with excellent instructors and Metalwerx is non-profit. They pour the money into hiring good people and keeping the place in top form, so that makes me happy. I take an open stuio class with  very talented silversmith/lapidarist who is happy to offer advice when needed. I would much rather pay extra to get the use of an excellent, well ventilated, well lit studio with every tool available, often in multiples, and excellent professional instruction, than scrounge amongst beat up tools and poor staff for cast offs.  That just strikes me as penny wise and pound follish. You get what you pay for. There is no reason a professional should put up with maltreatment, IMO, even if he/she is willing and able to instruct people for less than the going rate, out of dedication to his/her profession.

[PhilNM]

:)

[Debbie K]

I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you guys sooner; been having computer problems and had difficulty getting rid of a virus. I can't post on my other computer for some reason, so had to wait until I got this one back up and running.

Thank all of you guys for your input. I have been teaching folks carving for free and have found that they don't really value it when they pay nothing. They don't show up when they're supposed to, don't seem to want to listen to instructions and want to use my supplies. And these were my friends; I can only imagine how much worse it would be if they were strangers. I used to teach polymer clay sculpting at the local community college and craft stores, so I can set up a curriculum and teach. I made good money and really enjoyed it, but had to quit when I developed horrible health problems from the clay.

I think I will have to supply tools; diamond burs, files and grit, stones, wheels, etc. Otherwise, I'll have to buy the individual supplies and hold them for the next class and just sort of rent them out. The club has Foredoms, saws and grinders and they will be available for use. Also, I will have to provide material or else some people will want to carve jade, some soapstone, etc. It would be almost impossible to try to have the class keep up with each other without some consistency in material.

For a beginning class I think it would be best to have a set thing to do, like a leaf or shell or a bear. Something simple so folks would have a finished piece at the end. If I do an advanced class, I would like to focus on faces since that's what I'm good at. But I don't honestly know how many people would be interested.

I'm trying to find a happy medium, one that would satisfy students, the club and me. I found out yesterday that the club cost would be less than they originally said, so I'm hopeful that the cost can be moderate enough that people will be able to take it.

Again, thanks!

Debbie K

[55fossil]

    Well, where do we sign up for the rich peoples Lapidary Forum so we do not have to hear from all these poor people? My saw is broke, I am new to rock hounding and only have an old saw and a broken grinder, please help me...   I am certain these people are just wasting our time after reading some of the previous posts. I have a complete lapidary shop but my big saw is only 24 inches. Not sure if I will be invited to the rich folks club since I do not have a 36 inch saw. And damn it, I bought my saws used and fixed em up. Yes Sheldon, that is sarcasm!!!!!

    Anyway, there are rich people who do not appreciate shit either because they can afford to go to another class some other time if something more important comes up.  There is no ONE answer to what to charge and who will appreciate it. I generally go to private classes at a private home so I can get direct hands on instructions. But I remember in my younger days going to a lapidary shop at a public school. The Gresham, OR club provided all instructors, equipment and upkeep. There was a small fee requested and boy did I "appreciate" the volunteer instructors. Now my work is well recognized and has been published in magazines and books. No, I am not a full time professional. Thank you all who donate your time and instructions, whatever the price.  Neal

[Debbie K]

Neal:

I hear what you're saying. I agree that I, along with probably many others that frequent this forum, am forever indebted to the kindness of others for extending their hand to help me and to teach me. I was stymied for many years by lack of funds to learn to cast. I tried to take a course in college, but they had so many prerequisites to the course that I ran out of money and patience. I was one of those students that worked more than a 40 hour week and carried 18 hours until my health gave out, and jewelry was not my major.

When I joined my local club, I was fortunate to be mentored by an incredibly grumpy old man who helped me more than I can describe. I took a casting class from him, and after that he kind of took me under his wing. I taught him some sculpting; he taught me how to make molds. I made gifts for his girlfriend, he sold me old equipment at knock-down prices. All of my equipment excepting a very few pieces are second hand and most of them re-built by me. I spend more time fixing up equipment than I do making things.

I have practically no disposable income, and because of this I am very sensitive to the fact that others may be in the same boat. I do teach and share information for free and have taught many folks how to carve, sculpt, solder, cast, make cabs, enamel, etc. If you go and look at the old forum at the bottom of the home page and look at my posts, you'll see that I've shared practically everything that I know freely. If I do teach a course and someone tells me that they can't afford it, I'll do everything I can to help them out.

My club approached me about doing this class. Doing an organized class as opposed to my currently casual approach will require me to type up and print literature, procure tools and supplies and ferry equipment back and forth and make the drive. I believe the idea of their education push is to recruit new members by having classes that generate interest, and they think that this would be something that could do that. I can't make a calibrated cabochon to save my life, but I am a really good carver.

Sorry if this discussion upset you and anyone else. As you can tell, I'm conflicted about the money issue, too. I sort of consider my club as a volunteer organization and the whole thing makes me uncomfortable. And, I only have a 6" saw so I guess I'm in the wrong place, too.

Debbie K

[55fossil]

Debbie;

   First, I am not upset at all. Discussions are food for thought and education. I am fortunate to be able to have disposable income for my hobbies and take classes. This was not always the case and I am grateful to all those who helped me along in my quest to make great cabochons and collect great rock. Some charged me steeply but many helped freely. In my early days it was tough just to fill the gas tank for a day in the hills.
    BUT..... when people start equating money with intelligence and manners I get ruffled. Idiots come in all types, sizes, etc.....   I hope you are able to get paid for your work.

[ileney]

“BUT..... when people start equating money with intelligence and manners I get ruffled. Idiots come in all types, sizes, etc..... “
Agreed and frankly I’m not sure why you took what people said to mean that. If you think none of the people taking free classes and behaving badly there are rich, you are wrong. Some of the richest people I have met drive the worst cars, wear clothes with holes in them, and I even saw one person take the pastries, sugar and salt packets and other things from a table at a restaurant and stuff them in her giant purse. However, if a teacher who is teaching for little compensation is being abused by students, I think it’s wrong to expect her to continue doing so. It’s a shame that those who are rude mess it up for others, since as you point out, not everyone can afford expensive classes and though many colleges and community programs offer big discounts to those who would find it a struggle to pay otherwise, it’s a hassle to have to ask for a reduction and not every place offers that. I really don’t think saying that students who take expensive classes are more likely to pay attention means much about their finances. My grea aunt Lily was a factory worker who  scrimped and saved every cent, then every couple of years studied oil painting with masters in France and elsewhere. Yes, even though she was poor, somehow she managed despite the cost. BTW, the theory about people valuing what  is costly also works in other arenas, such as regarding renting out your home. Leave all your best furniture and furnishings there and your home generally is treated well. Furnish from the rental store and it will be trashed. Oddly, it makes no difference when all other factors are equal. Too many people observe this link for it to be coincidence. People are more likely to value what they view as a luxury, though that is really unfair. People can be perverse.