Lapidaryforum.net
Let's Rock => Rockhounding Tips, Maps, Trips Etc. => Topic started by: Sandsave on August 07, 2016, 08:43:52 PM
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Went back to find porcelain jasper large enough for sphere making. It's fractures it you get to aggressive digging it out. Managed to get a couple nice pieces I think will work. Only picked up a couple cab pieces.
The first pic I can get two 4". One 3" out of the second, the third are some nice cab material.
Sandsave
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Nice pastel colors in that rough
Sent from my LGLS990 using Tapatalk
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Sandsave: In the quest of learning and sharing, what defines a jasper as porcelain? I see a new jasper being sold for $25 a pound that is pitted, etc and being called a porcelain jasper. Your pictures show a dreamy area in your rough that looks smooth and pretty. But what makes it a porcelain jasper? I would love to start a discussion on this if there is really a definition or established terms.
thanks, Neal
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I looked it up.
Porcelanite, a semivitrified clay or shale resembling jasper.
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John;
Seriously, do you see where a definition does nothing to establish what is or is not Porcelain "Jasper". The definition says "resembling jasper", not that it is a jasper. Using "porcelain" as a term to define jasper without any verification that it is Porcelain is just fraud in my book. When people hear "porcelain" they are expecting something with the qualities of Bruneau, Willow Creek and Morrisonite jaspers. And the term means that this jasper is reflective of the very best jasper that came off these claims. The jasper was super hard, took a great polish, and appeared to be made from a super fine ash that was extremely high in silica and had a chemical bond that made it extremely hard.
As someone who buys and sells a lot of jasper I find the casual use of terms such as AAA, Owyhee and Porcelain when they do not apply are detrimental to the rock hound community. Some people are simply unknowing (polite term) of what they are selling. But established sellers should know better and be held to higher standards. The pictures posted by Sandsave could be a porcelain jasper. I am just raising a point as a jasper lover. I hope it is a porcelain jasper. Neal
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Porcelain jasper is a very specific type from Sonora Mexico. It normally is composed of white regular squares surrounded by mahogany color. When broken its surface looks polished like potch opal. Over the years many other jaspers having the same great polishing qualities have been called porcelain more as a description than name.
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"Porcelanite, a semivitrified clay or shale resembling jasper."
(So is there another name for a material that is hard but slightly softer than agate, very brittle, takes a polish and derived from shale or slate?) I know this is just back to the material name vs. regional name, but inquiring minds would love to know...
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I just looked up the definition :dontknow:
I always thought that porcelain jasper was very fine grained, high quality, easily takes a very good polish and has desirable colors. You have to be careful when buying. Some sellers will say anything to make a sale or they were told the name by someone.
I want to know too!
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"Porcelain" as an adjective means exactly what you mentioned - a class of jaspers with very fine grain and high silica content that takes a vitreous/glass-like polish. "Porcelanite" and "Porcelain Jasper" are a trade name for what I used to hear called "Exotica jasper" - if one name doesn't sell well, I guess some just switch to a new label. My experience of Exotica is that it polishes fine, but never gets as high a shine as the better of the porcelain class (Morrisonite, Willow Creek, Deschutes, Tracenite, etc.). There is a real mineral called porcelanite (aka mullite), but it isn't gem quality material and not to do with the fancy Mexican jasper.
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I am sooo confused. Surfed the net, still confused. It looks like the old saying
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it must be a duck.
If it looks like porcelain jasper, cuts like porcelain jasper, polishes like porcelain jasper it must be porcelain jasper ? :icon_scratch:
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The trade-named Porcelain jasper is not only called Exotica but Sci Fi jasper too. If two names aren't enough, try three.
I'd add Bruneau and Carressite to the true porcelain jasper list, and there are probably others, not all from the U.S.
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I am sooo confused. Surfed the net, still confused. It looks like the old saying
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it must be a duck.
If it looks like porcelain jasper, cuts like porcelain jasper, polishes like porcelain jasper it must be porcelain jasper ? :icon_scratch:
Yep but tastes like chicken.
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Mmmmmm I like chicken. :LOLOL:
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The trade-named Porcelain jasper is not only called Exotica but Sci Fi jasper too. If two names aren't enough, try three.
I'd add Bruneau and Carressite to the true porcelain jasper list, and there are probably others, not all from the U.S.
Not to be picky but the correct spelling is Carrasite. This is one of the worst misspelled gem names in the history of the planet. Some examples:
Carrisite
Carasite
Carassite
Carissite
Carrassite
"Charlie Carras found and mined the site in the 1970’s. The current owner, Steve Schultz took over the claim in 1999 and has mined on it every year since."
SOURCE: https://cascadegems.wordpress.com/2012/11/27/carrasite-jasper-from-the-owyhee/
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Well, I recall attending numerous gem shows long ago at which the Caress brothers were selling their fine jasper. If you'll check Hans Gamma's "Picture Jaspers" book, the Caressite spelling is used.
I agree that the name is commonly misspelled.
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I like chicken but this smells of apathy. So when I see a green stone that is pretty and the seller says it is jade, well I guess it must be jade. And thus another victim is bon of misrepresented rock being sold to a fellow rock hound. Not to mention all the good Owyhee Picture jasper sold on e-bay that looks like brown rhyolite.
Okay, seriously I was trying to have a serious discussion about what establishes a jasper as being "Porcelain:". I know many sellers will not label any jasper as porcelain because it is such a misused selling tool. One of my jasper discoveries is in both of Hans Gammas books and he has purchased numerous pieces of jasper of my new Deer Sky jasper as well. Looking at the finer pieces of Deer Sky you might label it as a porcelain jasper. I do not ever refer to it as a porcelain jasper. My point is we should look for common ground on using the term "porcelain jasper". Other than using a microscopic study of any given jasper for particulate size I do not see how any jasper can be considered porcelain. But if any one would like to buy some chickens, I got a bunch. Boy they poop a lot.
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Also @Sandsave your rock is gorgeous (whatever we end up calling it) and I look forward to seeing what you make with it!
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Sorry, I think we are all confused. Is the term porcelain a description of the mineral content or how it was created? Like from clay, porcelain is made from a fine clay. Or is if just a description of the stone and it's qualities. Or a way for sellers to ask more money for it. A way to take advantage of a buyer.
I have seen sellers trying to push off serpentine as jade.
I don't know. I am far from
Being an expert. But I can be a smart A** sometimes
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Jasper is another of the cryptocrystalline varieties of quartz, but unlike its first cousin agate, jasper is a "cemented product." Instead of silica forming in a nodule or crack, the silica solution slowly permeates a sedimentary material. Over time the silica acts like a glue, cementing the sediment together forming the hard material we call jasper.
In the case of jasper the color often comes from the original layers of sediment and not necessarily from staining caused by the mobile silica solution. Secondary features do sometimes appear in jasper like dendrites, which can form in narrow cracks or displacements in the main mass. In this case they are made up of the same materials one might expect in an agate. Cracks in jasper can be later filled by agate producing mixed stone varieties.
The size and composition of the sediment helps to determine the "hardness" of the final jasper and much of its color. It is also responsible for the ability of the jasper to take a polish. Very fine grained mudstone or siltstone can produce ultra fine particulate jaspers that result in high polish and nearly invisible grain. These are sometimes called porcelain jaspers and are among the highest quality.
Taken from: http://www.theimage.com/newgems/quartz/jasper/
I miss Ron. He was a wealth of information.
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Well, I recall attending numerous gem shows long ago at which the Caress brothers were selling their fine jasper. If you'll check Hans Gamma's "Picture Jaspers" book, the Caressite spelling is used.
I agree that the name is commonly misspelled.
Well you could be right after all as far as the miner. I just found this reference in a couple of places:
"In 1973 Charlie Caress filed the Big Hole II claim to the north of the Big Hole claim. In 1975 P. Caress filed the Lacey claim to the south of the Big Hole claim. Ed Brandt filed the Amy Ellen claim overlapping a portion of the southern part of the Christine Marie claim. The Amy Ellen claim has a long tall rock formation on it referred d to as "the pinnacle."
Source: http://reddingblogs.com/shastagemandmineralsociety/files/2012/08/Roc-Toc-August-20125.pdf
It's odd but I've never seen your gem spelling used anywhere else and Silver Streams
http://www.silverstreams.com/catalog/item/1980733/1394762.htm
is using Carrasite as are many other sellers. So I have been using Carrasite also and wish everyone could agree on one trade name to avoid confusion by buyers.
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Well I didn't mean to bring up so much discussion by the naming of my post! There is a gentleman I try and take rockhounding once a month or so. He's in his 80s now and has been a rock hound over 60 years. I take him out because he really enjoys it as he can't drive that far and he shows me places not found in any rockhound book. He called it Porcelain Jasper as we were headed up to collect.
I am no expert by any means! It is very hard maybe a 7, takes a very high shine!
So I went with what I was told it was.
What I do know is it's very beautiful material when finished.
Sandsave
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I'm thinking your older friend knows exactly what he's talking about. I have always read (and been told) that a "porcelain" jasper is extremely fine grained and takes a glass polish. Sounds like that's exactly what you have and it's beautiful stuff, too! :icon_sunny:
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I found out quickly when I got into lapidary a few years back that names can be confusing when it comes to lapidary materials. As far as the term 'porcelain' goes this is what I figured out on my own.
A- As a descriptor of material it refers to the very hard jaspers that are extremely fine grained and take a great polish. Bruneau, morrisonite, willow creek and imperial could all be examples.
B- As a trade name it refers to the particular variety previously mentioned in this thread. Someone mentioned it is mined in Mexico, but I don't know that part. It is generally a white matrix broken up with dark, reddish/black lines and has wavy patterns in pastel grays and pinks. I have a bucket full of this stuff and sent some out in some of the boxes I recently shared with people here.
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Can we have an ---AhMEN ? :Worthy:
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AMEN! it was great fun now what is the next discussion? and I am still confused
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Exactly right! The "porcelain" jaspers were called that way before the trade name porcelain jasper was every introduced to the market. :WEEEE:
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Jay,
how about some pics of finished spheres or cabs with that jasper?
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Here's a sphere from my last outing. To bad your leg held you back there was a ton of good cab size material up where we dug these bigger rocks out.
Here's another pic that shows the shine, a pic of last month cab contest
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thanks for posting the pic. Its a beautiful sphere with a great shine. I hope to get the boot off in 3 more weeks then I should be good to go.
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it shines up like a porcelain jasper. that stuff just wants to polish and shine.
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I introduced Sandsave to the older rockhound he is talking about and he is one of the most knowledgeable
rockhounds that is still alive to get information and knowledge from.
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True story! You can drive just about anywhere with him and he'll start pointing out places along the way that he has collected and a lot of them are not listed in any rockhound book.
Vast knowledge of the Utah area and surrounding states.