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Author Topic: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions  (Read 3043 times)

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ileney

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RE: How do I stabilize? What do I stabilize? Is this stuff hazardous? Does anyone know about the Blue Bell prospect?

I previously wrote about the expensive (at the time he got it) vintage unstabilized US turquoise that I was given by my dad. Additionally, I wrote about the "high hardness, unstabilized" turquoise I bought online recently from several vendors, relatively cheaply, presumably most of it from China, but probably not all (they claimed much of it was from Arizona but some of it was definitely from China).
A) I have never cut any turquoise before, but it was quickly apparent by feel and smell which had and had not been stabilized. The stuff I bought recently is mostly unstabilized, with the exception of the one larger rock, but only about 25% is close to the advertised "high hardness,"and even that isn't as hard as the stuff from my dad. The rest crumbles like chalk or is at least very soft, like rhodochrosite or even much softer.  I have pictures below.  I am wondering 1) if this stuff is hazardous given some of it crumbes to dust and is as muddy to cut as boulder opal 2) when / how to stabilize. Like, should I stabilize the pieces I was able to cab but which are proving hard to get a polish on and seem soft, or should I leave as is but set mostly as pendants or earrings where they'll be less knocked about. What should I use to stabilize? Opticon? Hxtal? 3) should I just throw some of it out since,despite the nice color, it's just so crumbly?
B) The three small pieces with very bright blue and green colors are from the stuff my dad got as a favor from someone who had a high end jewelry store specializing in Native American jewelry and employed several Native Americans who had obtained the turquoise direct from the mines. It was very expensive even then and I have a few ounces. These are my 3 small test pieces. When he got it, they said the mine had already been closed for many years due to a flood, so it was mined well before the late 1970's. He can't recall the name, but did NOT think it was from Kingman and after looking online, I was able to find that the Blue Bell prospect flooded some time before 1968. It was a mine described as four miles north of Coaldale and on the West side of the Monte Cristo range and primarily a variscite claim. "The turquoise occurs in veinlets, seams, and small nodules up to an inch in thickness and ...is very hard and has a deep, sky-blue color rarely excelled...specimens with matrix have delicate brown cobweb markings..." So I think this might be what he gave me. Anyone familiar with it? Should I be grinding through the matrix completely or leave some for the spiderweb effect it seems to be giving? I think it is pure color below that. It's super hard and already taking a shine with 220 hard wheel preshaping.
C) Photos as follows:
1) new rough rocks, mostly soft
2)new rocks on left, but the vintage stuff is the three smaller bright ones to the right (or on bottom on my phone).
3)Presumably Chinese stuff. Definitely felt stabilized even without the paint smell
4)You can see how different the hard, vintage American stuff looks, even at only 220 grit; they are the three pieces on the right (but someghow show on bottom on my phone). But should I stabilize the lighter color, softer cabs(from the new stuff) to the left so they'll take a better polish or try zam or something?
5)The piece in back is newly purchased rough, stabilized, came from that big piece. The other pieces are also from the new stuff, appear unstabilized, have pretty hard turquoise and quartz, but the quartz is somewhat crackled, plus it has other stuff in it that is not polishing easily yet.
6) New stuff that just fell apart, indeed just like chalk. Now I understand what people mean by "chalk."
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lithicbeads

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2018, 02:01:10 PM »

The responses to this should be interesting. It has never been evident to me how typical stabilizers like opticon can work with nodules that are then cut as I am under the impression that the hardener does not penetrate far into the stone.
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ileney

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2018, 04:07:49 PM »

Hmmm... well, I did get most of it, stabilized or not, to a rough shape, and even the stuff I think is stabilized is a bit muddy ... but some of it is really, truly soft like chalk, just absurdly powdery and fell apart the second I hit it with the wheel. Even the 600 soft wheel is turning it to mud. If it really doesn’t penetrate the stone, I’m not sure why that big stone I assume is stabilized is holding together so much better than the other stuff that looks similar.
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55fossil

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2018, 07:16:23 AM »

    Rock and Gem published a series of articles on stabilized material and the Colbaugh Process a couple years back. Much of the stabilized material was put under high pressure / high heat to get the stabilizer to penetrate. Others literally manufactured stones out of stone dust impregnated with a hardener. The Colbaugh Process Turquoise was very impressive with no chalky areas and looked very natural. And they do label it as natural rock, stabilized. Then it gets resold and you can bet that most people never use the word stabilized after that point.
       Here is a link to Colbaugh site. It is very honest about what they do. Stabilized Kingman Turquoise is a major item.

http://www.colbaugh.net/ourproducts/roughkingmanturquoise.html

   Here is a link to a GIA article with great pictures of Stabilized / Natural material.   
https://dcgia.org/2016/05/25/natural-vs-enhanced-lapidary-gem-materials-by-helen-serras-herman/
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ileney

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2018, 11:59:10 AM »

Very interesting. Most of mine is clearly unstabilized and I’m still very unclear if I should stabilize the stuff I’ve managed to cab, but maybe not get a high polish on, or if I should keep trying ( admittedly, I didn’t do the full grit process or try Zam for any of these cabs as they were so muddy, plus the matte finish is still kind of nice.) The older stuff I have is very clearly much higher grade,  ( and had a price tag to match even way back then in the 1970s; it doesn’t need stabilization), but the new stuff kind of clings to you if your hand is damp, it’s so porous, almost like Ethiopian welo opal only softer. I’m worried maybe it will fall apart once set if it’s subjected to any hard knocks. Since I did get it into shapes, I could maybe Opticon those pieces and use heat to set it so it sinks in a bit more? Or Hxtal? I’m not sure if I should just leave it be and see what happens. What do other people do?
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Orrum

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2018, 03:20:30 PM »

Turquoise really needs backing no matter if it's stabilized or natural.
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PhilNM

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2018, 05:10:30 PM »

Stabilization can take many forms. most involve a resin or polymer that is forced into low grade good color "chalk" by first heating it low and slow, possibly for weeks, to drive out any moisture till it reaches less than 5%. Then putting in a vacuum and holding it there for awhile, all while submerged in the medium, and then putting that immersion container into a pressure chamber to finish the process. Good "treats" can requite months of "soak". The material is then drained and put into a low temp oven for what could end up being days or even weeks. Typical turnaround time for a GOOD treatment is 3 months processing time. As typically only 5% of a mines production is high grade turquoise, that means most of what you see on the market is stabilized medium to low grade turquoise, or even high grade, nice color chalk. Lots of chalk has no color, and that usually goes back in the mine dump if the miner is a reputable one, or sold to processors like Colbaughs who colorize and stabilize it overseas.
There is NOTHING WRONG with stabilized turquoise, some of the prettiest material I've ever seen is stabilized. And not all high grade is worth cabbing. I've seen some pretty ugly high grade stone too.
And many times you can't tell by pictures or someones description, you have to hold it, smell it, feel it and only then can you make an educated guess. I've successfully cabbed soft low grade turquoise that was drop dead gorgeous, but IMHO, too soft to  last very long in a jewelry setting.  Color is no indicator either. Except for the brown stuff in the pics above, that is NOT turquoise. No way Jose. Matrix can help determine locality, but not the specific mine, and comes in colors ranging from tan to black.
In other words, you need to have a background in turquoise or have someone who is turquoise knowledgeable take the time to physically inspect and determine what anyne might have.
back to the subject at hand. stabilization. Can Joe hobby stabilize successfully? rarely. There are processes out there on the net that say to use opticon, epoxy and  acetone, etc etc etc. You will never achieve a good "treat". You may affect the surface a few microns, but in order to stabilize, you need time and the proper equipment.  Places like Colbaughs will stabilize for you, but they have a minimum poundage. I think they charge a mere $40 per pound, and turnaround can vary from 3 to 6 months. So make sure the material you have is worth it. Stay away from processors that use acryllic. Bad juju. Get the real stuff that used a resin based treatment. Nuff said.
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finegemdesigns

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2018, 10:28:16 PM »

Last time I did Colbaughs it was $30 per pound with a 7 pound minimum order. But that was a few years ago. I heard a rumor on Facebook it's now $50 per pound.

I rarely ever buy rough non stabilized turquoise now since there is so much top quality stabilized material out there and it's harder with great colors and better yields. Especially Kingman.

As far as disclosure IMO it's bordering on fraud for sellers to say nothing on their turquoise when it's been stabilized. The common excuse is that buyers should ASSUME it's stabilized not natural since 95% of all turquoise being sold in the market is stabilized.

Of course this is BS since most of the population does NOT assume this at all. This lack of disclosure is what I call "deception by omission".
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Slabbercabber

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2018, 07:40:21 AM »

An article published in the "Rock Rustler's News" 1993 Give instructions like this.  Soak the rough in a 50-50 mix of sodium silicate and water for 7 to 10 days.  Let dry for another 7 to 10 days then heat cure in an oven to a maximum temperature of 225 degrees f.  All the cautions about heating rocks apply here.  That includes sand bed, slow heating and slow cooling.
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ileney

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2018, 08:34:51 AM »

I really appreciate all the detailed information and advice. I haven’t followed up because I’m dealing with a personal issue that has come up, but am so happy to have such knowledgeable support on this question! Thank you!
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finegemdesigns

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2018, 10:23:13 AM »

Lots of chalk has no color, and that usually goes back in the mine dump if the miner is a reputable one, or sold to processors like Colbaughs who colorize and stabilize it overseas.

My understanding is that Colbaughs stabilizes in their US facility and does not colorize the turquoise. Stabilization is commonly called "for hardness only" which preserves the original colors and patterns in the turquoise.

Please provide some further information. Thanks.

Note: Is it possible you are referring to man-made materials like the Mojave Purple Turquoise?
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edgarscale

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2018, 06:04:33 AM »

An article published in the "Rock Rustler's News" 1993 Give instructions like this.  Soak the rough in a 50-50 mix of sodium silicate and water for 7 to 10 days.  Let dry for another 7 to 10 days then heat cure in an oven to a maximum temperature of 225 degrees f.  All the cautions about heating rocks apply here.  That includes sand bed, slow heating and slow cooling.
is it possible to get the full instructions from you?  we don't get the Rock Rustler up here. 
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50% rockhound and 50% wire wrap
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Slabbercabber

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2018, 09:26:51 AM »

I don't get "Rock Rustler" either.  That was the entire content of a column note from an old "lapidary Journal".  Sorry that I have nothing more to add.  However, if I were doing it I would take a page from wood stabilizers.  They immerse the wood in stabilizer and put the container in a vacuum chamber for 24 hours.  By that time the bubbles should have stopped.  I wonder if the same stabilizing material would work for minerals.  You can spend all day researching that.
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PhilNM

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Re: Turquoise Blue Bell prospect AND stabilization/polishing questions
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2018, 10:55:10 AM »

Edgarscale -  the waterglass method is very poor and not worth it. It's essentially the same as using Opticon.
Slabbergrabber - The resin used for wood does not do a very good job on stone. I tried, poor results.
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