Lapidaryforum.net
Let's Rock => Rock Talk => Topic started by: Bluetangclan on January 25, 2017, 10:25:56 AM
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Only because I saw something that had me thinking, is there any danger of a poisonous(toxic) rock, say malachite or tigerseye, causing any problems for someone wearing it over the long term? I would think not once its polished and done. I usually wirewrap the few I have done so I don't even think they touch the skin but still, suppose its a bead type pendant.
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Most of the toxic rocks are only toxic if you are breathing in the dust as you cut them.
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LOL,just don't lick them.......... Most finished material is sealed too,so no worries.....Bubble Bee Jasper would be on that list too......
That would be a great topic for the forum,posting up the toxic rocks,to give people a heads up,when working that material...
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I didn't think it was a problem outside of working them. What do you mean by sealing them? I finish the polish, hit them with either zam or cerium oxide and call it a day.
Off hand I know of
Malachite
Tiger's Eye(and its family members)
Bumble Bee "jasper"
Chrysocalla(sp?)
Pietersite
I have been told to wear a mask when working on any fossil. Could be an old wives tale passed on as "truth"
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Add Trent Agate....
Bill
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I didn't think it was a problem outside of working them. What do you mean by sealing them? I finish the polish, hit them with either zam or cerium oxide and call it a day.
Off hand I know of
Malachite
Tiger's Eye(and its family members)
Bumble Bee "jasper"
Chrysocalla(sp?)
Pietersite
I have been told to wear a mask when working on any fossil. Could be an old wives tale passed on as "truth"
Yuppers fossils were a living creature and give off a foul smell,plus the dust will harm your lungs!!!
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I didn't think it was a problem outside of working them. What do you mean by sealing them? I finish the polish, hit them with either zam or cerium oxide and call it a day.
Off hand I know of
Malachite
Tiger's Eye(and its family members)
Bumble Bee "jasper"
Chrysocalla(sp?)
Pietersite
I have been told to wear a mask when working on any fossil. Could be an old wives tale passed on as "truth"
Quote" hit them with either zam or cerium oxide and call it a day. "Quote.... That is a seal....
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Well there you go lol.
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You need to add Black Coral to the list as well
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Is it necessary or advisable to wear rubber gloves when cabbing any of these?
What about lapis? It turns the water blue and has a smell. Is it toxic at all?
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Ileney,
I wear a respirator, nitrile gloves. eye protection, and a plastic smock when I cut the Trent Agate. I don't think a few will hurt you but when you cut a lot of toxic material, I think discretion is advisable.
Bill
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Hmmm...I've been cutting quite a bit of chrysocola and lapis on my trim saw and pixie - near the kitchen table. Maybe I need to think about how to do this more carefully. Thank you for the advice.
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My own rules also include mask and gloves when working on anything that came from living being such as dinosaur bone, horn, seashells, petrified anything, fossil anything. Thing about bacteria and in silica in case of seashells I believe. Any kind of shell or coral should be well vented. If you are working and get any kind of metallic taste in your mouth, get a mask on. Protect your lungs, liver, kidney, neuro system, and skin.
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Most finished gems like Trent Agate are considered non-soluble as far as their minerals such as arsenic. But you need to wear a mask if you are grinding or polishing them. Smaller tiny dust particles could be a problem if inhaled or ingested. But a finished gem is not a hazard like this. This is my opinion and is based on research I have done in the past and doesn't constitute any kind of medical advice. IMO the vast majority of these gems such as Trent Agate, Myrickite and all the copper based gems are completely safe to wear.
Note: This subject comes up every few years so maybe put a sticky somewhere on the website for newbies?
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Note: This subject comes up every few years so maybe put a sticky somewhere on the website for newbies?
Good point. It's done.
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Mother of pearl and abalone shells; the dust is supposed to be really bad for you.
Debbie K
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Run a sealer on the material,it will be safe than.....
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I have some Andersonite. I don't think I'll be wearing it as a necklace. Fluoresces enthusiastically though.
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I totally forgot to add some important ones: Some "London Blue" topaz. Some of it was so irradiated to get the blue color that it's still "hot", and this is true for both the rough and cut stones.
The other is cinnabar, which I understand is never safe to handle due to the mercury leaching.
Debbie K
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There is an awful lot of blue topaz out there. How would one identify which is hot? I have jewelry made with it ( it's my son's birthstone) and also have some faceted stones purchased from gem shows and jtv. Were stones from a particular time period suspect?
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The only way I know of is a Geiger Counter.
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Does anyone know of good resources for identifying cinnabar from among all the other reds? There's two cinnabar mines in my "back yard" that produced a lot of mercury 40 years ago, but I have never known what the local species looked like (only that the fish downstream still test too high to eat.)
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I don't know if this will help you out or not: http://www.minerals.net/mineral/cinnabar.aspx
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Re: the topaz, the older stuff was much more irradiated than the newer stuff is. Hummingbirdstones is right; the geiger is the best way to see if they're really hot.
Re: the cinnabar, it has a specific gravity of 8.09, so I'd avoid any red rock that's really heavy. That's just me.
Debbie K
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Hmmm... I don't know anyone with a Geiger counter.
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If you have a college around you, you may be able to take it to the geology department. They usually have one. Also, maybe a jeweler in your area may have one.
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>My own rules also include mask and gloves when working on anything that came from living being such as dinosaur bone, horn, seashells, petrified anything, fossil anything<
From the 'living' standpoint I disagree on this with the exception of seashells I suppose. These are all sooooo old (like millions of years) there is essentially no risk for biological contamination of any kind (meaning you are not going to acquire some type of bacterial or viral infection from any of these).
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>My own rules also include mask and gloves when working on anything that came from living being such as dinosaur bone, horn, seashells, petrified anything, fossil anything<
From the 'living' standpoint I disagree on this with the exception of seashells I suppose. These are all sooooo old (like millions of years) there is essentially no risk for biological contamination of any kind (meaning you are not going to acquire some type of bacterial or viral infection from any of these).
I dumped all of the grindings from Coprolite and Dino Bone on my tomatoes last year. Each plant set 1 giant tomato and bunches of very small ones............ ;)
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I tried to research the basis of toxicity of shells for personal reasons and came up with an astonishing blank for real data. There is a possibility that this is one of the great urban myths of our field. No you don't want to breath silica dust or even carbonate dusts, but toxic is a different thing. The Native Americans worked with red corals and shells for centuries and you would think that hard evidence of problems would exist if the problem was real. Many (nearly all cite shell as toxic or hazardous, but show me something more than the statement. I'm much more sensitive to hazards from toxic or irritating minerals than I am to hazards of shells. JMH perspective.
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I think that the toxicity of shells is about breathing in the silica dust. Obviously not in one sitting, but over time. Silicosis is a very real and very nasty disease and any preventive action you can take while working shells is a smart move. :icon_sunny:
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I don't think the shells are "toxic", per se, just that the dust is really bad to breathe, much more than rock dust. I think that power tools have made working with it much worse, as the dust is finer and much more prolific.
Another really bad rock for dust is some soapstone, which can have quite a bit of asbestos in it. I worked some dry several years ago; mostly drilling large holes and such and it was months before I my breathing was back to normal. Some serpentine and of course tiger eye and hawk's eye also can have high amounts of asbestos, too.
I ran into the same issues that you had researching shells when I was researching malachite a few years ago; very little information on the toxicity. I believe that there was a lengthy debate on the old website about it; it got quite heated. Malachite has copper carbonate in it which does make it toxic, and after the discussion ran its course I did find an article on it killing and sickening many African workers.
Debbie K
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I have wondered the same, but in a more specific application as in plugs for gauged ears. I was told that Turquoise is not used for instance because of the copper. I was also warned about dinosaur bone for the same application. The woman wasn't sure, but recommended that I look into biocompatiblity, but I've had a hard time finding any really good information. Any thoughts on using them in healed ears?
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No idea where Dino bone came into being hazardous. It is agate plain and simple, no organic mater and and no hazardous mineral like some sulfides, copper bearing or radioactive nasties. I would wear a mask with any grinding creating dust but wearing a dino bone being dangerous is silly in my opinion. Maybe a Dino from Yellow Cat flats with high amounts of Yellow possibly having Carnotite in it?
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I agree with Steve. Dino Bone is agatized. I highly doubt there is any problem wearing dino bone.
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Tiffany stone or beryllium is very dangerous to be around its dust. when grinding make sure to use water flooding the material as you grind or shape it.It is also radioactive.
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There was a report a while back about some of the Dino bone being found to be surprisingly radioactive. I have been worried about cutting it ever since. I suspect that is what the concern is, not toxicity, per se.
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I found some dino bone at yellow cat a few years back. It does register on the gieger but not much. There are areas there however that I wouldn't go near.
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I'm not an expert by any means but I did work a couple of summers making flower and sea shell leis when I lived in Hawaii "Oahu". Although the commercials show working with nothing I can't reiterate enough the safety that you must have when you are cutting shells. These are animals that grew from reefs and such that held so many different toxins and bacteria that get thru a simple mask. You need to have a mask that deals with sanding, fiberglass and small airborne contaminants. Sinus infections, chest colds and rashes start with these but are very hard to get rid of and people don't think to tell the Dr. that the have been working with these and it wears on your immune system. I also wear nitrile glove, mask/respirator/eye protection and a smock that is not washed with anything. Also if you do get something in your eye, marine shrinks the eye and helps grains lol out and I also have a large bottle of saline to rinse my eyes if needed immediately. I've learned the hard way having my eyes flushed in ER with lidocaine drops every 3-5 minutes to lower the pain level. It took 45 mins of a constant flush to get sea shell dust out of my eyes.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
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Re: the topaz, the older stuff was much more irradiated than the newer stuff is. Hummingbirdstones is right; the geiger is the best way to see if they're really hot.
Debbie K
I did a lot of research on this when the topic came up at GemologyOnline a few years ago. When treated blue topaz first came to market in the 1980s a few "hot" batches were discovered. The stuff was initially irradiated by dental X-ray machines in Brazil but the dangerous London Blue stones were treated in nuclear reactors and took a fairly long time to become inert.
I forget all the details but since then strict controls on topaz imports have been established in the U.S. See this report from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission: https://public-blog.nrc-gateway.gov/2014/12/08/blue-topaz-the-irradiated-gemstone/ I've dealt in the material for 30+ years and have never heard of a single case of anyone being sickened by handling or wearing it. In the case of London Blue it's required to be stored for specific cool-off periods before it can be shipped to the U.S. These regulations are strictly enforced by the NRC.
Re: Geiger counters, a funny story. Eight or ten years ago an Indian dealer sent me large chrysoberyl cat's-eye and asked if I could sell it for him. It was a yellowish stone, not the brandy color that's considered most desirable in the Trade, but it was huge, nearly 20 carats, and of fine quality. It so happened that about the same time a few of the yellowish Indian stones had been sent to an Indonesian company which irradiated them to darken the color. They were sizzling "hot" when they came to market and this set off a big alarm among people who dealt in those goods.
Not knowing that, I took the stone to several major gem dealers of my acquaintance in L.A. When I pulled the stone out of my pocket, people's faces blanched and one guy ran quickly to a back room and came back lugging a Geiger counter. He gingerly tested the stone and got nothing but a normal background radiation count. But I had trouble convincing other dealers the stone was safe. As it turned out, very few of the dangerous irradiated stones were ever discovered but it set off a panic that I still hear about all these years later.
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I was out in Wyoming this last trip and collected some of the Sweetwater Agates. They fluoresce a bright green do to the addition of a Uranium Uranyl Ion. I have looked and they say the radioactivity is pretty weak. This is similar to the glow of Desert rose from the South West that also glow green. The Sweetwater's are just a bit brighter. Very pretty under a short to medium wave UV light. Even low exposure over long periods can be bad. I don't think they are that much to worry about but have no clue about radiation levels.
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Certain Sea shells were used to produce Lime for plaster here in England and I do believe Australia. The shells were burnt and ashes were the Lime.
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I am certainly no expert but I suspect the problem with seashells is not the calcium carbonate so much as the fact that most people working seashells do so dry. Any dust is bad. Fresh sharp dust is the worst.
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There is a great article that goes after the myth of Shell Toxicity and takes on many of the rumors and hype. The only common theme is dust and as slabber said dust is bad. People have died from inhaling volcanic dust particles because of the damage they do to the lungs etc nothing toxic there just the dust. As for the toxicity this article seems to put that to rest.
http://www.portercalls.com/images/sounds/DOPCUT%20SHELLANDDIEarticle.pdf
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I was out in Wyoming this last trip and collected some of the Sweetwater Agates. They fluoresce a bright green do to the addition of a Uranium Uranyl Ion. I have looked and they say the radioactivity is pretty weak. This is similar to the glow of Desert rose from the South West that also glow green. The Sweetwater's are just a bit brighter. Very pretty under a short to medium wave UV light. Even low exposure over long periods can be bad. I don't think they are that much to worry about but have no clue about radiation levels.
With radioactive elements you not only have to worry about the toxicity of the element itself, but it's decay products. Here is what our friends at Wiki have to say about Uranyl Ions, "Uranyl salts are toxic and can cause severe renal insufficiency and acute tubular necrosis. Target organs include the kidneys, liver, lungs and brain. Uranyl ion accumulation in tissues including gonocytes[15] produces congenital disorders, and in white blood cells causes immune system damage.[16] Uranyl compounds are also neurotoxins. Uranyl ion contamination has been found on and around depleted uranium targets.[17]
All uranium compounds are radioactive. However, uranium is usually in depleted form, except in the context of the nuclear industry. Depleted uranium consists mainly of 238U which decays by alpha decay with a half-life of 4.468(3) × 109 years. Even if the uranium contained 235U which decays with a similar half-life of about 7.038 × 108 years, both of them would still be regarded as weak alpha emitters and their radioactivity is only hazardous with direct contact or ingestion". Alphas are the largest radioactive particle. They can be stopped by a piece of paper or your skin, but if you breathe them in or handle the mineral and then food when you get them inside you they are very bad. Those long decay rates show that this stuff continues to give off alpha particles for a long time. That russian guy who was poisoned in the UK, Alexander Litvinenko, was killed by ingesting an alpha emitter. Granted polonium is worse than uranium, but how many alpahs does it take to kill me is not math i would like to do.
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Are masks, the kind with rubber bands sufficient? What about respirators? I have heard that Cerium O is not a good thing to breathe without something to block that dust floating in the air. I have one lung left from Vietnam, so I want to be sure to keep it functioning, of course. All opinions are welcome. I use the rubber band kind when grinding/sanding/polishing, and a Harbor Freight respirator when using polishing agents like CO / TO/ Linde A/ #61 Rapid Polish, etc. I think this is important as all of you guys are rare and there are not a lot of us.
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Are masks, the kind with rubber bands sufficient? What about respirators? I have heard that Cerium O is not a good thing to breathe without something to block that dust floating in the air. I have one lung left from Vietnam, so I want to be sure to keep it functioning, of course. All opinions are welcome. I use the rubber band kind when grinding/sanding/polishing, and a Harbor Freight respirator when using polishing agents like CO / TO/ Linde A/ #61 Rapid Polish, etc. I think this is important as all of you guys are rare and there are not a lot of us.
I use a 3M mask like this one:
3M(TM) Half Facepiece Respirator Assembly 6291/07002(AAD), Medium, with 3M(TM) Particulate Filters 2091/07000(AAD), P100
https://www.amazon.com/3M-Facepiece-Respirator-6291-Particulate/dp/B000FTEDMM/ref=sr_1_6?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1514965877&sr=1-6&keywords=3m+mask
The disposable ones are lighter but they wear out quickly so the 3M is more economical long term.
I also had a big eye scare this summer when I was grinding without safety glasses. A particle grazed my eye and I was lucky it didn't go in. I now ALWAYS wear safety glasses. I got these and they are excellent:
3M Virtua CCS Protective Eyewear 11872-00000-20, Foam Gasket, Anti Fog Lens, Clear
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AEXKR4C/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Thanks! Someone else suggested this and I actually bought it but feel the seal to my face doesn't fit that well. However, I also just bought one of those lightweight full face shields and figure that combined with even a leaky mask will probably protect pretty well against most anything.
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Missed a rock hound trip going to Nevada because they were collecting Galena, which I believe is more than a bit toxic. Who needs the trouble?
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On the subject of toxic rock, if I want to know if the red in a rock is cinnabar, or if the dark silvery luster is lead-based, where do I send it?
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Missed a rock hound trip going to Nevada because they were collecting Galena, which I believe is more than a bit toxic. Who needs the trouble?
I have collected galena here is Nevada multiple times. Never been poisoned by it since it is only toxic if ingested or from inhaling fumes during smelting.
By the way do you ever drink wine? You may be surprised that many wines, especially red wines, contain high levels of lead. In fact under California law banning the sale of products with a certain level of lead I would not be surprised if many California wines are being sold in violation of California law.
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Thanks for the Galena information, James. I shall keep what you said in mind. About the lead in wine, is this absorbed by the ground water in CA where there may have been run off by industrial applications? With all the notoriety about lead in paint, and other products, you would think that CA Health Departments, etc, would test for lead content in wine.
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Thanks for the Galena information, James. I shall keep what you said in mind. About the lead in wine, is this absorbed by the ground water in CA where there may have been run off by industrial applications? With all the notoriety about lead in paint, and other products, you would think that CA Health Departments, etc, would test for lead content in wine.
The lead primarily comes from all the decades they used leaded gasoline. Many of the vineyards are right next to freeways. All that lead spewed out in the exhaust ended up in the soil where it was picked up by the plants.
There are all sorts of dangerous things out there the government turns a blind eye to. Take for example the nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drugs that the FDA lowball estimates around 16,500 deaths a year from. Yet these drugs are even sold over the counter. If there is sufficient money to be made or the lobbyists for the industry are strong the government turns a blind eye.
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Lapis turns the cutting fluid blue due to the opalescent nature of lazurite (Na,Ca)8[(S,Cl,SO4,OH)2|(Al6Si6O24). It is non toxic.
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Know what is funny and sad at the same time? Some of the reservoirs that have been created in California for drinking water actually submerged Mercury mines. Somebody had to think that was okay. Yumm
I included a state study that shows the Reservoirs that have Mercury problems. The site also has a map of Large and Small scale Mercury mines and a map of the Reservoirs and I overlaid them just to see the scope of mines that were incorporated into the reservoirs. Makes you want to drink sea water.
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I think it is more toxic as an airborne inhalant if you breathe it in while grinding it or you vacuum it up and the vacuum cleaner has mercury laden exhaust or if you eat way too much fish that swallowed it. In Water, it is not as toxic oddly enough, from my understanding.