Lapidaryforum.net
Gadgets, Gizmos, and Dohickeys => Cutting, Grinding, Polishing => Topic started by: Mossagatemac on December 27, 2016, 10:40:24 AM
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Hi everyone,
I'm pretty new to this and unfortunately there's no rock club in my area. I'd like to start making some cabs eventually and so I'm in the planning phase of setting up a cabbing machine and need some advice on wheels. Metal bonded, resin bonded, expando drums, 6+ steps of grit, belts, diamond paste, holy smokes! - could someone point me to, or give advice on, what I actually need to get going that will give decent results without too many headaches??
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Its all been written. Its up to you to read and decide for yourself. If you cant find enough here, try the Rock Tumbling Hobby site.
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It comes down to how handy are you and how much do you want to spend.
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peruano - It's unhelpful and rude to respond to a new member's post for help by responding in the way you did. If you can't give any advice or point them in the right direction by providing a link to an old thread with the info, please refrain from responding to the post at all. Suggesting that they go to another forum is DEFINITELY not helpful. :nono: Thanks.
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peruano - It's unhelpful and rude to respond to a new member's post for help by responding in the way you did. If you can't give any advice or point them in the right direction by providing a link to an old thread with the info, please refrain from responding to the post at all. Suggesting that they go to another forum is DEFINITELY not helpful. :nono: Thanks.
I second this. Please play nice on this forum.
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It comes down to how handy are you and how much do you want to spend.
This is most true. What kind of budget do you have to play with and do you have the ability/desire to refurbish an old piece of equipment or even build a custom machine. These two things will dictate the direction you go in. I had the good fortune to have a local club to start at, but my first piece of equipment for my home shop was a custom-built machine. Then as finances allowed I started buying equipment.
Probably the easiest way for someone to get started on their own is a common, commercially produced machine like the Diamond Pacific Genie. Theres tons of used ones out there as well as new ones still being made. And many people have lots of experience with them so they are relatively easy to troubleshoot, refurbish and repair.
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Hello Mossagatemac,
Welcome to the forum !!
There are a lot of variations to answering your question. When my father purchased his Highland Park B 12 it came with two carborundum wheels, a 3" x 8" flapper sander, a muslin buff and a leather buff. This unit also comes with a 10" trim saw. It was every thing he and I needed to cut small rocks to slabs, pre-trim, ruff grind, moderate grind and final shape before polishing. We were happy with the results and I would offer that the girls at school that I gave pendants to were also thrilled :headbang:
The lapidary has a lot more choices these days and most allow us to get to the end result faster however costs are higher for that privilege. There is another element that many of us face as we dig deeper into our craft....we can never have enough wheels.....I purchased a few diamond grinding wheels for my beginning shaping, both 80 grit from Covington. Their standard diamond wheel is my main go to wheel to start. If I have an exceptionally hard stone I use their 80 grit sintered. The sintered is a hard cutting wheel and can tend to tear and chip so I don't use it much.
I then use a 200 grit standard diamond to get some of the deeper scratches out and minimize the facets. Then on to a 3" x 8" expando wheel. For me this is where is all happens. One wheel with sandpaper between 80 grit and 800 grit. I'm using silicon carbide belts. I recently purchased a single 100 grit diamond belt which will last much longer but at a price.
Next up is a 1,200 grit diamond resin wheel then a 3000 resin wheel. At this point most stones are smooth and fair and have a pretty reasonable gloss. Polishing is next up on a muslin buff with cerium oxide or a leather disc depending on the stone.
If I had a wish list it would be MORE WHEELS !
You can get by with just a few wheels. If you had an 80 grit standard diamond and an expando you could get a good beginning, get lot done and then lust for MORE WHEELS....
Cheers
Kent
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Just wanted to let you know that you can also access our old forum archive from the homepage of this forum. It is toward the bottom of the page. The specific link for this type of topic is here: http://gemstone.smfforfree4.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=vavhvchnjaoo6c5ae05k7j42i7&board=42.0
There's a wealth of information in that archive and it's worth the time to peruse it just to see what's there. :icon_sunny:
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Thanks for everyone's feedback!
Kent -really appreciate you walking me through your process. Like I said, I don't have a club in my area. Part of my problem right now is figuring out which questions to even ask!
After reading your response, I think part of my confusion stems from reading some posts which say they go to polishing after using 600 grit sanding and some go to 3000+ before polishing. Could you help shed some light on the difference? Or what's really needed to get good results?
As for cost - I don't want to cheap out in this because I think it would lead to frustration down the line, so I was exploring what it would take to build or refurbish a machine with new wheels.
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After reading your response, I think part of my confusion stems from reading some posts which say they go to polishing after using 600 grit sanding and some go to 3000+ before polishing. Could you help shed some light on the difference? Or what's really needed to get good results?
A lot depends on the stone. Some stone types work up better on the lower grits. I know with stones that are soft, often the lower grits are enough to get a good shape and surface before progressing to polishing. Someone who actually cuts stones will be able to answer this better than me.
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Welcome aboard Mossagatemac.
I think when someone mentioned going from 600 grit to polish, they were talking about using silicon carbide belts on expando drums. Before diamond was commonly used, silicon carbide belts seemed to cut off at 600 grit. They now have them in finer grits. An old timers trick was to use a worn out 600 grit belt for semi polish. The worn out belts averaged about 1,200 grit. (This is how I started out).
Your setup will depend a lot on how much space you have for machines. I'm in the process of accumulating enough 8" Poly arbors, hoods & drip pans to set up an arbor with 80 & 220 grit diamond wheels on it, and 3 more arbors with expando drums with diamond belts. This is to save the need for changing belts between sanding stages. It also allows plenty of room between wheels. I have a supply of spin on discs in both left & right hand threads to use as polishing discs.
If you are limited for space, any one of many brands of 6 wheel diamond machines may be the best way to go. I personally have a DP Genie which I've been using since the early 90's, but I also have a Lortone 2 wheel arbor with expando's & silicon carbide belts. Don't know if it's just me, but some types of material seem to respond better to the old school belts.
Ask plenty of questions. We're here to help if we can.
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I agree with most of the posts above. My personal preference is for the Diamond Pacific Genie. The standard Genie will cut almost everything and with the interchangeable polishing pads for the end, you can switch to the polish that works best for the stone you are working with. I also like that you can get a trim saw attachment for the unit.. If size is an issue, they also make the Pixie but it does limit to an extent the size of the stone you can work.
If you are going to be working mostly agates almost any unit will do and it takes practice to get the perfect shapes and smooth curves with out flat spots and scratches.
Good luck in your adventures
Bob Johannes
The Amethyst Rose
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Just spotted this on another forum. Hell of a good price for original Highland Park equipment. It could be refitted with your own choice of wheels. http://andy321.proboards.com/thread/77144/highland-park-cabbing-station-sale?page=1&scrollTo=898791
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Just spotted this on another forum. Hell of a good price for original Highland Park equipment. It could be refitted with your own choice of wheels. http://andy321.proboards.com/thread/77144/highland-park-cabbing-station-sale?page=1&scrollTo=898791
people still visit other forums after all the slaving Enchantra the rest of the staff and i did to make this lovely hole in the WWW? (kidding)
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A nice price for that HP machine. Too bad I'm so far away.
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Just spotted this on another forum. Hell of a good price for original Highland Park equipment. It could be refitted with your own choice of wheels. http://andy321.proboards.com/thread/77144/highland-park-cabbing-station-sale?page=1&scrollTo=898791
people still visit other forums after all the slaving Enchantra the rest of the staff and i did to make this lovely hole in the WWW? (kidding)
LOL. Not trying to promote another site. Just pointing out a hellofa good deal. I'd buy the machine myself in a heartbeat if it weren't for the shipping cost. That & the deadly looks I'd get from my wife if another machine showed up at the door. :evil:
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I'm just s smart ass. LoL
Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk
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A Genie is a good portable machine and can do everything to make cabs. But if you look at used ones you may have to replace the wheels? Than you are back to the price of a new one. So if someone that is familiar with them can't inspect it than you are better off with a new one. I prefer the expandable drums, if you wear out a belt you slide it off and slide on a new one!
Hope we don't give you too much info.
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if you can swing the $$
I would recommend getting a 6 wheel Diamond pacific Genie with Nova wheels on it.
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Yeah, Robin and I both bought our Genies second-hand. You WILL have to replace the wheels - sooner on some machines than others - and you MIGHT have to replace a motor a lot sooner than you'd like. Mine croaked pretty soon after I got the machine.
So, before you buy a used Genie, figure the cost of replacing the wheels and motor. Get a quote for a new machine from a Diamond Pacific dealer. Subtract the cost of wheels and motor from your quote, and that would be the top end of what you should pay for a used machine. If the used one plus replacements is anywhere close to your new machine quote then buying a new one would be my choice.
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Just a thought.........My first machine was an old, used 8" Crown with silica carbide hard wheels, 2 expandos and 2 end laps. I used silica carbide belts and leather polisher on an end lap. Worked and still works great. Slowly added diamond wheels and diamond belts. It has made a lot of cabs, polished slabs and display pieces. I still use the sc belts with some stones and I cannot see replacing it in the near future. Good luck!
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On the old HP units; if you can wait; they will continue to appear as they are virtually indestructible; outliving their owners. I acquired my HP-B50 for $325 A few years ago on Craig's List after watching for a few months. I wore through most of the worn SIC wheels and ditched the SIC sanding drum that came with it for diamond...much quicker and easier to work with for me. I joined a club and followed this blog to get oriented in the right direction. I now have 100 and 220 hard diamond and 280 and 600 soft diamond (nova) wheels on the unit (8 inch); acquired a separate arbor from an estate sale for dirt cheap and fitted those with 1200 and 3000 soft diamond wheels. Most stones don't need a polish once they come off the 3000 wheel. Love the results but the set up does take up a fair amount of space (Diamond Pacific Titan solution is much more compact). Just offering my opinion here, so you get a range of responses to consider.
Whatever you decide...have fun with it. Lapidary is the best part of my day!
David
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Thanks for all of the ideas! I have some feelers out on Craigslist etc so we'll see what happens. I'm not in a huge hurry but just wanted an idea of what to be looking for. Sounds like people get the job done with a pretty wide variety of setups.
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" Sounds like people get the job done with a pretty wide variety of setups."
You have no idea. But stick with it long enough and you will. :LOLOL:
That equipment seems to multiply just like rabbits do. :laughing4:
And the rock pile keeps growing & growing until your storage area starts to tilt under the load. :dontknow:
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I think if there was one good way to cut cabs, someone would have figured it out and we would all be using the same machine. With that said, I think the original poster was looking for some foundational knowledge to build upon. It seems like we, the afflicted, all take different trails in our quest to cutting the widest range of material. However, I do think a basic cabbing setup can be distilled to this:
- trim saw
- 100 grit wheel (shaping)
- 220 wheel (removing 100 grit scratches)
- 600 sanding disk (pre polish)
- cerium oxide on leather buff for polish
Granted, the purists among us would argue the merits of a wide spectrum of abrasives, but let's face it... this simple setup will cut and polish a very big assortment of rough and provide much enjoyment. My first machine was a Rock Rascal Model T. It came with two wheels (100 and 220) and an end disk buffer that I could stick my sanding disks and leather buff to. I loved that little machine and it provided everything I needed to create my first cabs, start to finish. You have to change wheels, but I kept a wrench on my workbench and could swap out wheels in under a minute.
If you end up catching the bug you'll find yourself staring at lapidary catalogs and jonesin' for new equipment, but with a basic setup to work with, you'll have some context for deciding on your next acquisition.
Hope this helps and welcome to the club!
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If you are starting out and have sticker shock about having to lay out $1,800 - $2,200 for a Genie i would suggest an Ameritool swap top grinder http://www.ameritool-inc.com/store/index.cfm/product/5_8/universal-heavy-duty-grinder-and-polishing-machine-complete-with-accessories-kit.cfm For $659 you can get the 8" model which will take you from shaping the cab to final polish. You may be able to get a better deal on ebay or from a vendor on this or the "other" board :) In the beginning you are not going to be cranking out cabs at a production rate so swapping the wheels is not going to stall your production. If you decide you love cabbing then you can still use the Ameritool for making sure the back of your cab is flat. Stay away from the Inland Lapidary grinders. They are poorly designed. Water gets in the motor and it dies. I have gone through 3 motors on mine and gave up replacing them. The Ameritool swaps wheels without tools. The Inland makes you use a hex wrench. The Genie will take up an entire desk and is heavy so you will not want to be moving it around. The Ameritool is light and you can unplug it and store it away somewhere else.
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Hi everyone,
I'm pretty new to this and unfortunately there's no rock club in my area. I'd like to start making some cabs eventually and so I'm in the planning phase of setting up a cabbing machine and need some advice on wheels. Metal bonded, resin bonded, expando drums, 6+ steps of grit, belts, diamond paste, holy smokes! - could someone point me to, or give advice on, what I actually need to get going that will give decent results without too many headaches??
Here is a link (from our old forum) to one of the best homemade lapidary machine designs I have seen.
http://gemstone.smfforfree4.com/index.php/topic,6282.0.html
Of course you don't have to go the whole 10 wheel set up. Most commercial machines stop at 6 wheels.
Jerry
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One thing I didn't think to ask in the original post - complete noob question - do all of the types of wheels attach to the shaft in the same way? Is there one method that's better than others?
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Not too sure what you mean by method. I prefer wheels over flat discs.........some don't. I polish to 50,000 diamond and use mostly tin oxide.........There are other polishing compounds. All of the wheels attach in pretty much the same way but there are differing size shafts requiring inserts to fit the less than 1" shafts. Its been a month.How is your search going?
Ron (theimage1) built this outfit and posted on the old forum. http://gemstone.smfforfree4.com/index.php/topic,2150.0.html
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May I jump in here also? I'm looking and considering my options. Price not being the determining factor Genie or Titan?
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Titan is larger and you can cut bigger cabs with the 8" wheels. If you have the space and you like to cut bigger cabs, that would be the way to go. Otherwise, the Genie will do just fine if you need to conserve on space a bit or you don't cut really large cabs and you'll save money when you need to replace wheels.
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I didn't know there was anouther forum?
Never looked lol no reason too! There is a wealth of information here already
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The link to that "other" forum is actually this one when it was hosted somewhere else. Phish (and others) rescued the forum, and all the old threads, for us.
All the info can be found toward the bottom of the home page in the "Old Board Archive". There's tons of stuff in there we wouldn't have access to now if it hadn't been saved for us by very good people.
http://gemstone.smfforfree4.com/ is the direct link to the archive.