Lapidaryforum.net
Let's Rock => Rockhounding Tips, Maps, Trips Etc. => Topic started by: Ranger_Dave on March 15, 2017, 10:05:00 PM
-
On a recent trip, and on a Facebook site, I asked about the laws regarding rockhounding on an active mineral claim. Does anyone here know the laws on that? It appears there's a difference in the type of claim. If it's a lode claim you can take rocks not associated with the lode. On a placer claim you can't take anything. Is that right? From what I've been told you can't take any rock or mineral off of someone's claim.
-
It doesn't matter which sort of claim: you never have the right to take the material that is covered under the claim. Don't even pick it up without permission.
Perhaps they were talking about patented claims (onto which you may not even walk through without permission) and unpatented (which you can walk through, but not take anything being claimed)?
The explanation at the end of this pdf would be applicable to all federal claims: Rockhounding on Public Lands (https://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/wy/information/docs.Par.9237.File.dat/wynf-0004.pdf)
State mining laws can vary somewhat, but the principles are the same (i.e., that the claim owner owns and controls the mineral material being claimed within the boundaries of the claim).
-
I thought you could surface collect on a claim as long as it was not the item being claimed?
-
That being, my understanding is its bad manners to mess with a claim in n any form.
There r a lot of claim markers out there that are way out of date. I check the claim notice, usually in a jar to c if it's current.
-
As a claim owner who has had tons of good rock stolen from his claims..... The BLM states you may not take any rock off of a legally filed claim, not even if it is laying on the surface. I gave my plume agate claim to the Boise Gem Club years ago. Everyone was already taking so much rock it only made sense to let them pay the fees and take care of it. Someone even took my claim markers, fencing around the big hole and my firewood. Probably not a rock hound but it happens.
As for all the people who take out other friends and say "no problem, I have permission to take rock from this claim", bull shit is the more likely truth.
Now that I have pissed off a lot of people, well I am sorry. That is the truth. BUT, there are hundreds of inactive claims that are not properly marked and that is not your responsibility. A lot of people have claims and do not mine them or make certain the claim markers are put up after people and cows knock them down. As a rock hound if you do not see markers it is not your responsibility.
If you know it is a private claim... well the rest is up to you.
-
I was hoping Neal would weigh in on this because he is a claim experienced person. Thanks Neal!
-
As a claim owner who has had tons of good rock stolen from his claims..... The BLM states you may not take any rock off of a legally filed claim, not even if it is laying on the surface.....
That's the problem. I'm getting conflicting stories. Some say you can take something as long as it is not the rock/mineral specified in the claim. But some claims are for everything, some specific. Then there is a difference between lode and placer claims. From that pamphlet referred to above; " if an unpatented claim is located for jade, rockhounders can look for and collect any mineral except jade (claimants frequently locate claims for all locatable minerals)." That goes against what you say the BLM states. Do you have a source for that BLM statement?
We're talking about unpatented claims since patented claims are private property.
I'm not trying to argue, or purposely being obtuse. I'm trying to find the answer so I don't take something I shouldn't.
One reason I need to know, not too far from here is an old mine. It's not much of a mine, two big, old, iron doors that are unlocked. That gets you into the mine; a cube of about 15 feet on each side. That's it, no shafts or anything. There is a recent claim placard. I'm assuming it's for gold since it's a quartz vein. Outside that adit, uphill, is supposed to be some fluorescent fluorite. I'd love to get some but don't want to take any if I'm not supposed to.
-
https://www.blm.gov/lr2000/
State land local gov.
-
https://www.blm.gov/lr2000/
I know that's the general area of the BLM database, but that link gets me a blank page?
As was said, you need to first find out whether or not the claim is abandoned, and if not, what mineral resources are being claimed.
This site gives access to some mine claim info, and might be your first step: Land Matters (http://www.mylandmatters.org/Maps/Mining.html) (though you should still follow up by confirming with the claim owner and/or BLM. Relying on what folks say on the Internet or social media is asking for trouble for this and most any other subject :wink:
-
https://www.blm.gov/lr2000/
I know that's the general area of the BLM database, but that link gets me a blank page?
Odd. When I go to http://www.blm.gov/lr2000/ it redirects to the https site and I get right to the page. It only gives me a blank page when I use https :huh:
-
I can get to the site, but it's just a database that's a programmers showcase but a users nightmare.
-
if someone rock hounds on our club claims without a membership its a federal mineral trespass violation.
That said, we have both lode and placer claims and the laws for both are the same. Minerals are minerals both metallic and stone.
-
Here is a non-government site that has pretty clear English on mining laws. http://www.ewg.org/mining/howto.php
The section below I copied is pretty clear: "the claimant holds rights to mine the metals and minerals there".
Explore claims. A mining claim is a parcel of public land defined by posts driven into the ground in the corners of the parcel by a mining company or an individual. It is described in a claim form filed with the appropriate local government and Bureau of Land Management offices. For a total federal fee of $135 on a 20 to 160 acre claimed parcel (not including local filing fees), the claimant holds rights to mine the metals and minerals there. The federal government has interpreted this right to supercede all other potential uses of public land. In addition, the claim holder is not required to return any money to U.S. taxpayers for the value of the minerals extracted.
But really, the simple thing to do is call or e-mail your BLM office and quit listening to gossip and all the experts. Opinions are like a******
-
That's why I'd like the exact law quoted. I'm still looking for a good definition of mineral trespass. I trust strangers on the Internet only so far. Legal advice coming from anyone on the Internet should be suspect.
The federal laws I've seen are all about how to stake your claim and all that. Nothing about what others can, or cannot, do on that claim.
Don't worry. Until I see the law, I'm not setting foot on anyone's claim without getting permission. Second hand "He doesn't mind" is not good enough.
I'll keep looking in my spare time. I'll post here if I can find a law to quote.
-
I found this:
The public has the conditional right to cross mining claims or sites for recreational and other purposes and to access Federal lands beyond the claim boundaries. The right of access to a mining claim or site across Federal lands does not mean that the you have a right to cause unnecessary or undue degradation of the surface resources. You are liable for damages if found responsible for unnecessary loss of or injury to property of the United States.
Here: https://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/wo/MINERALS__REALTY__AND_RESOURCE_PROTECTION_/energy.Par.28664.File.dat/MiningClaims.pdf
-
So, is picking up a piece of quartz on a jade claim "undue degradation"? Everything I've tried to read on this is very vague. :dontknow: My degree is in biology, not legalese. It does say you can cross the claim on your way somewhere else. That's a start. You did give me another site to check out. Thanks.
-
It is extremely vague, but I'm reading it as you can cross the land, but you can't touch anything on it -- just because it's the feds and that's how they like to roll.
-
I think the key might be somewhere in the definition of "mineral trespass." I tried and got my brain fried by a bunch of legalese.
-
Do you have a link for that? I'd like to look at it. I found this Washington State law, so I'm sure there is a mineral trespass law in each state that allows mining claims.
Print
RCWs > Title 78 > Chapter 78.44 > Section 78.44.330
78.44.320 << 78.44.330 >> 78.44.340
RCW 78.44.330
Mineral trespass—Penalty.
(1) A person commits the crime of mineral trespass if the person intentionally and without the permission of the claim holder or person conducting the mining operation:
(a) Interferes with a lawful mining operation or stops, or causes to be stopped, a lawful mining operation;
(b) Enters a mining claim posted as required in chapter 78.08 RCW and disturbs, removes, or attempts to remove any mineral from the claim site;
(c) Tampers with or disturbs a flume, rocker box, bedrock sluice, sluice box, dredge, quartz mill, or other mining equipment at a posted mining claim; or
(d) Defaces a location stake, side post, corner post, landmark, monument, or posted written notice within a posted mining claim.
(2) Mineral trespass is a class C felony.
[ 2003 c 335 § 2.]
-
I think you got it! That one sentence: "Enters a mining claim posted as required in chapter 78.08 RCW and disturbs, removes, or attempts to remove any mineral from the claim site" says it all.
-
I noticed you highlighted MINERAL. Do you have a definition of mineral that would include or exclude things like jasper and agate because they are conglomerates of minerals?
That line did cover MINERALs, but it does not mean you can take anything else just because it is not a single mineral such as gold or silver.". All jaspers and agates are minerals as well as most other rocks. Yep, they are conglomerates. But almost every mineral mined is a conglomerate of many other minerals. Gold is often found as free minerals but the majority of gold is milled out of host rock which is a conglomerate.
Yep, more of that BS legalese that we all hate and causes us so much trouble. Not trying to stir the pot. Have you called the BLM yet and talked to an agent that handles mining claims????
-
Here's my two cents worth and this has always worked for me. Ask Ask Ask the claim owner. I've called and had my head chewed off and other claim owners give permission.
Then I don't have to try and keep track of the rules, simple but it works.
-
..... Ask Ask Ask the claim owner.....
That's the best way. On Facebook someone is trying to say that on a lode claim you can pick up anything that's not in the lode, but on a placer claim you can't pick up anything. I say, and the law seems to agree with me, that you can't pick up anything on any claim. You can walk across it, but can't touch anything. I'm sticking with the no touching, no taking, rule.
This is an important topic. I'm sure many claim owners have had it with trespassers and now refuse any requests to collect on their claims. It's to the benefit of all rockhounds to obey the law and respect claims.
-
https://www.blm.gov/services/land-records
https://www.blm.gov/search?search_api_views_fulltext=claim+records
https://www.blm.gov/search?search_api_views_fulltext=records