Lapidaryforum.net
Gadgets, Gizmos, and Dohickeys => Fixing, Modifying and Refurbishing your Lapidary Equipment => Topic started by: OldeTimeDC on March 25, 2021, 01:45:51 AM
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Well Hello...as promised in the welcome thread here is my progress thread of the Frantom Slab Saw I'm currently working on. Please keep in mind I have been restoring machines, tools and mechanical antiques for decades and of course I have my own methods of doing things and in certain orders. I'm not insinuating I know everything and I'm always learning. Although I don't mind suggestions I find some are anxious to help and tend to get ahead of me when I'm creating one of these threads. So I please ask if there's something one wants to point out to me it might be I already am aware so it might be a good idea to take it to PMs so as not to derail the flow of the thread and keep the flow/progress going smoothly......this only a suggestion and questions are always welcome.
This is going to be slow going and I'll post when I have time. First up...pics of the saw on the day of pick-up. I found it sitting outside at a moving estate sale but recognized the maker almost immediately. Upon inspection, not in bad shape for its age so I payed the guy, got a receipt but had to leave it there to pick up later once I got a friend to help me pick it up since it weighted a ton and I was driving a compact SUV.
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A couple weeks later....Day of pickup. I got my "go to guy" when he had time to go pick up the saw with his car trailer that he had built a host on it that lifts up to 2000lbs. Man that saw was heavy. Just getting it1/4 way across the lot near enough to the trailer was hard since this estate was on farming property out in the boonies and soft deep sand was everywhere. So here's a couple more pics once we got it near enough to lift it onto the trailer.
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So once home I proceeded to fully inspect it to see what it was going to need to get it up and running. First I will needed to clean out the dried debris and crud in the tank. Most of it I took a wide putty knife and "shoveled" most of it out with a small dust catcher into a bucket also scrapping the inside to loosen everything up. Also not knowing just what it was inside the tank I took the added precaution of wearing a professional breather to help prevent inhaling anything. The rest I vacuumed up into a shop vac and bagged all that up including the filter...Ill drop all that off at the next Hazard waste faculty they set up locally. I know its probably overkill but it certainly wont hurt. Last I'll wipe the inside with a cloth and mineral spirits.
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Upon further inspection I could already see the need to replace all bearings and completely disassemble all power feeds, pulleys, inside arbor, carriage and vise. Once removed everything will have to be cleaned of grease, crud and surface rust. Some parts painted to help protect them...that bridge I'll cross once I get to it. First off to remove everything on the outside.
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Thanks for starting this thread.
We also have an 18" Frantom - the upper right corner of the nameplate is missing. Window is in the top of the lid on ours.
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Thanks for starting this thread. We also have an 18" Frantom - the upper right corner of the nameplate is missing. Window is in the top of the lid on ours.
Vince....I think the windows varied depending on the year. Yours might be a later model. I might want to have a short chat with you if its ok. I already have a couple questions I need to ask I found during my initial inspection. I'll PM you.......If anyone else here has this model Frantom I'd like to hear from them especially if they happen to be in my area. I've already found a part broke off under the carriage Id like to get a pattern and pic of I might have to fabricate.
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The first casualty...taking a step back during unloading of this heavy machine at my place and trying to dolly it to the side of my house it slipped off the dolly and fell over onto the soft dirt right on the main arbor drive pulley......my heart felt numb when this happened....the results from my stupidity...........
...............once I removed it and cleaned it up. Getting it off was not an easy chore. I had to soak the rusted arbor shaft for a couple days with a penetrating oil to safely pull it off with a gear puller. I'll have to source out a new one. An 8" dia x 1" bore cast iron Pulley for a single 4L or A V-belt made by Browning...they of course don't make anymore. I still have to make a few contact calls to see if I can find a new old stock one. I know you guys are going to tell me I can source something close but I'm funny that way when I'm restoring vintage machines. I like to if possible to put it back original and I'm not going to put chinese parts on this machine if I can help it. Don at Pacific Diamond just texted me a pic of one close to it they had....I might have to take it since I've looked everywhere else including the manufacturer, Evilbay, McMaster-Carr , Grainger and several other lg distributors.
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Sorry to hear about your mishap.
The folks at Cigar Box Rock refurbish old saws and equipment. They fabricate some parts that are no longer available. Their prices are reasonable for what they do, and they are the first people I would get in touch with for vintage or repro parts.
We (Hummingbird Stones) have been happy customers of theirs for over ten years now.
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Sorry to hear about your mishap. The folks at Cigar Box Rock refurbish old saws and equipment. They fabricate some parts that are no longer available. Their prices are reasonable for what they do, and they are the first people I would get in touch with for vintage or repro parts.
Had already tried them.....have to call back Fri when there's someone there to talk to in charge of their parts archives.
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Next.....getting off all the rest of the outside operating and power feed parts.
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Done......I'll pull the idler off later
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While I was at it, once I removed the Arbor Flange Bearing.....I then removed the entire Arbor and its housing along with the Saw Blade from the interior. Also pulled 1/2 of the Vice and the Tank drain plug.
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Something I discovered earlier but hadn't mention yet till I could get clear pics of it.......this model Frantom uses an old "tube" style split nut on the vice advance feed. Still in good shape but the handle was broke off....at least it looks broken off. This is one of the reasons to locate someone with the same model saw so I had access to one to compare with and get reference pics and measurements if needed.....assuming that person will cooperate with me. Most likely I'll have to fabricate a new handle....which is all it really needs and assuming it is broken. I have checked with Highland Parks parts thru a guy at Pacific Diamond and their upgrade spit nut assembly doesn't fit this older model saw. They do have a split nut that does in case I need it but I think I can fix this one without going to that extra expense.......doesn't hurt to have back up plans. I still need to call Cigar Box too. This is why I do alot of research way before tackling a machine.
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A few days ago I took a break from disassembling and thought I'd clean up the outside power feed assembly I had removed. Getting these rusty parts apart without ruining them isn't easy. Lots of hammering with a brass mallet, punches, help from a 12 ton press and some penetrating oil I had them all apart. didn't care about the pillow blocks since I already found the exact ones to replace them which they still make. Now you ask why do i go to such trouble (if at all possible) trying to find original parts? Simple......I like to bring it back original and most of all...THEY FIT. I could just buy any pillow block that works but this way I don't have to shim or mod anything to make it work. Plus if they lasted over 50 years use they should last another 50 years. Least this works for me and the next owner I hope appreciates the extra trouble I went thru to do it right the first time.
Pics posted are before and after disassembling and cleaning up the parts. I also posted a pic of the penetrating oil or "Kroil" I've been trying which seems to work ok but its rather expensive. I usually use Liquid Wrench although I may give PB Blaster a try too.
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Yesterday I really hurt myself.....tried removing this damn stuck handle from the saw's vice and pulled something in my shoulder...man it hurts. That handle will only turn a very small amount at a time....whats keeping it from turning off is beyond me. I've soaked it with penetrating oil for days....wire brushed off all rust....heated it up with a torch and it still will only budge a little at a time. While using this big-ass pipe wrench to get leverage on the handle to keep from breaking off the cross handles is when I musta pulled too hard and hurt a shoulder muscle or ligament. So as I'm typing this thread my shoulder hurts like hell and every time I try lifting my arm which I can barley lift it hurts too.....I'll have to quit for a few days till it stops hurting and just do more research on the phone and internet or I have other things I could do......think I'll go take some more Tylenol......later folks.
P.S. Please don't go telling me to see a doctor.....I can if I need to but I've hurt myself before this way...it will heal....ow ow ow ow.....
damn @*&$?#?@ rust.....
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Seeing your more recent photos gives me something to compare ours to. I think our split nut and handles are different.
I've never had ours disassembled to the point you're at with yours.
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Seeing your more recent photos gives me something to compare ours to. I think our split nut and handles are different. I've never had ours disassembled to the point you're at with yours.
If you would please...just send me a couple pics of the whole split nut assembly and area including the handle. If anyone else reading this has this saw please contact me.
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Second photo in this thread - http://lapidaryforum.net/group/index.php?topic=4209.0 - shows ours. Same type split nut but with a different handle. Our handle is just a flat bar that pivots on one bolt and pushes against a long-shank bolt with a roller sleeve on it to disengage the split nut.
Another member posted a close-up of his here: http://lapidaryforum.net/group/index.php?topic=4662.msg35480#msg35480 . It looks just like the setup on the saw we have.
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You guys both have the newer improved split nut Frantom did after my model saw........I'll have to keep looking but thanks for helping. Just wondering on the vise handle block is that a grease or oil cup mounted on the left side?
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That is one heavy and substantial feed dog for the drive mechanism. Most designs wear out quickly because of too much resistance on too few threads. Your machine has lots of thread contact and substantial brawn. Good luck with the body and the saw.
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That looks like a great place to use a 1/4" hex impact driver. The constant hammering is light enough not to damage but given enough impacts, almost anything will move. Just need to fab an adapter for the T-handle.
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Yep, DC, that is indeed a grease cup.
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Shoulder still in a lot of pain. I basically had to get to a more stationary vice to move around and get more leverage on this bitch that I couldn't get in my shop. So I called my buddy who happens to have a massive vice that mounts on his car trailer. So this is what we came up with........
...........So after several mins of soaking with oil and pulling back and forth.......
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........Finally worked it loose !! Man I tell ya this thing fought all the way and I found out why it was so stubborn coming loose. It wasn't rust....you can't see it in the pics but it was slightly bent internally inside the middle of the metal block which I will straighten and then use a 5/8-11 tap & die to clean up the threads. I'll also cut and drill out the T-handle and install a new one with a slightly bigger dia. handle. Besides the old one got chewed up a bit and already knew that was inevitable given the only way I could get a wrench on it and limiting the damage to the part. I also have another idea for an improved handle but will cross that if I decide to go thru with it. Plus I had a back up plan in case the bolt snapped off....just drill it out and make a new part. I always try to think out things including alternative plans way before.
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And the winner is...!
Always good to have a "Plan B", too. Easy to see you know how to get things done.
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Today thought I would remove the cross rod, straighten and clean up the t-handle for the vice. Here's the finished handle. I still have to make and install a new cross rod plus run a Die on the threads but found I didn't have one in this size. In a few days I'll head out of town to a cool old school type hardware store I found not far away and metal supply to pick up some needed items I cant get from these local rinky-dink stores here. Besides I like browsing there......its the "Toys-R-Us" for men......well.... mostly men.
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its almost like my saw, but your pulley system is completely different.
I havent uncovered mine in two years tho lol
i want to find a cruiser beach style fat bicycle fender to put behind the blade to keep the oil from splashing out between the hinge then onto my patio.
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PS: mine is a 17 inch saw, but i put a 20 on it.
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only pics i got right now
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Phishisgroovin.......hope you don't mind but thought I would fix your pics for you...they looked a bit washed out and detail was lacking so I made some slight improvements. I tried PMing or Emailing them to you but couldn't. You can download these if you like. The saw you have doesn't look like a Frantom, whats the maker?
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i have no clue of maker, no tags anywhere.
its a 5 gallons oil, 17 inch saw but i put a 20 inch blade on it and added a bottom drain since the prior owner drilled a hole in bottom.
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Hey there, DC. Have a photo of your handle and split nut assembly.
It's on a 24" saw a lady in the club is selling to pay medical bills. The saw is like new, and you could buy it for $5,000.
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Hey there, DC. Have a photo of your handle and split nut assembly. It's on a 24" saw a lady in the club is selling to pay medical bills. The saw is like new, and you could buy it for $5,000.
That isn't my split nut assembly on my 18". Its their improved version a couple years after mine was made. ...but it is a good picture though so thanks and besides I already own a 24" Frantom.....Also a 24" Highland Park Saw retails for $4995 BRAND NEW...so thanks for the "bargain" :thumbsup:. Before we start getting off track for this thread this isn't a "for sale" thread.....Its best I feel to take these to PMs next time so some moderator doesn't jump on me........thank you.
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Crap. I just posted it 'cuz I thought that was the setup you had.
No worries about the mods here.
Finally, I'd buy this saw or any one of yours for the same money before I'd buy a new "import".
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Crap. I just posted it 'cuz I thought that was the setup you had. No worries about the mods here. Finally, I'd buy this saw or any one of yours for the same money before I'd buy a new "import".
Vince......everything is good.....appreciate the pic and help and you're welcome to post anytime. Its when you mentioned it for sale is when I felt the need to intervene. Being new I don't know the mods here and some on other forums I have been on can be Nazi control freaks amongst other unpleasant things which I no longer post on or even visit anymore because of it. So my apologies if it was taken wrong.
I'll soon have the entire cartridge and vice removed for cleaning/restoring and have better pics of Frantoms' "tube style" spit nut version they first used. I've also since been corresponding with a fellow at Diamond Pacific and found nothing wrong with mine which I thought was broken but according to them its suppose to look that way and soon after went to the design shown in your pic you posted......I have been restoring machines, tools and mechanisms from all trades for several decades and its always helpful to learn some of their history.......so always learning.
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This IS a great thread for any first-time Frantom owners - like I was.
Looking back at the photo of the handle on your "tube style" split nut, the photos of mine and Jhon's, and the "new and improved" one on the saw the lady in our club has, I see the progression of the designs.
I don't quite understand how the later design - with less material in the split nut - is an improvement. Unless it was to allow for adding inserts the way they're made (or reproduced) now when they wear out to the point where tapping is no longer an option.
Now I know the saw we have is later than yours, but earlier than the ones that don't have the tube style split nut. The upper-right corner of the nameplate on mine was torn off, so I've always wondered about the age and model number. This thread has helped a lot.
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Well finally located a 5/8-11 NC Die locally to finish cleaning up the threads on the vice adjusting block and T-Handle. I love these hexagon dies..makes it easier to hold many different ways to ease using in these situations if need be. Now all there is left to to with this part is make and install a new cross handle. I still have plans on going out of town and picking up parts I need I can't get here so that will be added to my list.
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Any updates on your parts search?
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Something I discovered earlier but hadn't mention yet till I could get clear pics of it.......this model Frantom uses an old "tube" style split nut on the vice advance feed. Still in good shape but the handle was broke off....at least it looks broken off. This is one of the reasons to locate someone with the same model saw so I had access to one to compare with and get reference pics and measurements if needed.....assuming that person will cooperate with me. Most likely I'll have to fabricate a new handle....which is all it really needs and assuming it is broken. I have checked with Highland Parks parts thru a guy at Pacific Diamond and their upgrade spit nut assembly doesn't fit this older model saw. They do have a split nut that does in case I need it but I think I can fix this one without going to that extra expense.......doesn't hurt to have back up plans. I still need to call Cigar Box too. This is why I do alot of research way before tackling a machine.
That handle isnt broken, thats just the way they were made.
Tony
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That handle isnt broken, thats just the way they were made. Tony
Thanks but already found that out long ago...........Just hadn't posted or gotten back to that part yet.
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Any updates on your parts search?
Mr Vince......hadn't gone anywhere or forgotten about this...... just had other priorities to take care of. Took the arbor apart the other day and ordered all the replacement bearings I needed from a local distributor. I also went out of my way to get the same exact manufacturer's bearings that were made by "Sealmaster" , still available (and expensive too) instead of going on the cheap with Chinese made replacements. Common sense and logic told me that if the old original bearings lasted over 50 years of use these should do the same.....or most likely need replacements way after I'm dead and buried. These showed no sign of ever having been replaced.
I also drove out of town during my absence and bought some bar stock from a great metal supply to replace the t-handle I still need to make, plus pick up some hard to find large bolts to fabricate something I'll show later. I have reasons for the ways I do everything.
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That's great. Doing it right will pay big dividends.
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Hello...just popped in here just to let interested parties know that for right now this project is at a stand still till probably winter. Summer here this year is unusually brutal with temperatures exceeding 110 - 120 degrees and I just can't work on anything outside especially in my shop which can be a hellish oven during the day. So for right now I stay indoors with the AC running up my bills and not going anywhere I don't have to since the AC in my car also decided to quit and can't afford to fix it for the third time. I'll continue this once I can tolerate going outside for more them a short time without risking a heat stroke.(GOD I hate the desert and wish I could afford to move east).
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Still here.......cooling off soon. I went to a close by Rock Show last weekend and picked up a nice Moonstone Sphere and Ammonite. I'll post a pic of it once I figure out where to post it.
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Yep - cooler in the saw shop here as well. Will be looking into parts for our old Frantom, too.
Will try again to remove the arbor drive pulley (without cutting it off) to swap the feed drive pulley out for a smaller one.
Looking forward to seeing your rock show finds.
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Here's where I posted the pics of my last finds from the rock show:
http://lapidaryforum.net/group/index.php?topic=6050.msg44235#msg44235
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Dennis - I finally got the arbor drive pulley to pop loose this evening. Had filled the set screw hole with penetrating oil 3-4 months ago, and hadn't tried to pull it off since then.
Put the puller on it today, centered it, and gave it a go. It popped out about 1/8" but was still pretty tight. Looks like really old dirty oil had dried under it over the years. Filled the set screw hole with more penetrating oil. Will see how it goes tomorrow morning.
It WILL come off of there now, and I'll finally be able to swap the feed drive pulley for a smaller one to slow the feed rate.
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Well - finally got the drive pulley off the arbor. Has at least .002" ridge around where the set screw spun on it decades(?) ago.
I'll just clean it up enough to get the feed drive pulley swapped out for a smaller diameter, and use it as-is for while.
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Look at that, you could place a retaining ring into that groove! :smiley:
Seriously, though, what do you do when shaft surface is damaged or spalled, so bearings or bushings or sheaves cannot be mounted? Grind and sand it flat, then use thin shims ("tolerance rings") to ensure good fit?
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One hopes to be able to sand the raised defects down without reducing the diameter - but that doesn't always work out. I have used sheet metal strips to "sleeve" more than one shaft. Not ideal, but sometimes "whatever works" is okay, right?
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Got that arbor cleaned up, and installed the smaller drive pulley and shorter belt for the feed.
Had another project pop up that has kept me from testing it. I can guarantee it won't be long until I do... .
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Hello Everyone...just popped in to see if I've been missed (which I doubt :icon_tongue:) and give an update. Was going to get back to work on this but now another set back.....while trying to help move a large piece of machinery (about 400lbs) I fell and cracked an elbow bone on the concrete so my arm is in a sling for a couple months to heal. I think once I get done with this saw I'm going to sell it....any inquiries take it to PMs. Once done I'll post an ad. In the meantime I'm out of commission for any larger projects but not completely out of commission. Just have to adapt.....Typing on a keyboard is difficult and even had to have a friend help install a spinning knob on my steering wheel so I can drive my car one handed. That's one thing about having many interests....I'll just do something else in the meantime. Don't feel sorry for me...I learn from my mistakes so rarely repeat them and glad it wasn't worse especially when my skull bounced off something hard. I see it looks like its been quiet here...maybe I'll pop over to Quartzite in Jan if anythings happening there just to look around...ciao
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Yeah, yeah - we missed you. You posted a lot for a little while, so I wondered where you went. Also 'cuz we both have Frantoms.
Really sorry to hear about your mishap. That truly sucks!
On the Frantoms - I finally did cut an end off a chunk of Utah Wonderstone the other day. Getting the blade RPM up into the low end of the recommended range helped it a bit.
Only other thing I might do is go from 3" to 4" on the motor pulley and from 8" to 9" on the feed shaft pulley. Maybe - maybe not... .
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Hello everyone....been away for a long time. I regret to inform everyone that during my absence while reflecting in the ICU my priorities have changed and have decided to sell off all my equipment and all rocks, slabs, crystal clusters and most everything else I have but maybe a couple display pieces. ....maybe keep one saw to keep my foot in the door. I'm sorry but this necessary. I wish thing were other wise. I might glance in occasionally but for now I have other things more important to deal with. I can always be contacted. Take care and I wish everyone well.