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Author Topic: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons  (Read 900 times)

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VegasJames

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2018, 06:17:38 PM »

I have heard via some very loud instagram conversations between the 'dead ringer' and 'dead camel' fans that 'Dead Camel' comes from that specific claim, and everything else comes from other claims on Dead Camel mt but with other names to differentiate whose it is.

At the end of the day it's both a pretty material and an interesting case study into the social impact of rockhound naming conventions.

In that case since I found three different types of stone in the area all not on any claims that would mean I would have to come up with three totally new names, two for the same material found elsewhere on the mountain. That is totally ridiculous.

Personally I'm a fan of ridiculously specific different names because they give a better understanding of the material's origin spot than broad locale names. Had a lot of years to stew over the problem of "but where in the hundred-plus-square-mile area by that name did this specific rock come from?" Back to the DC jasper, from the tone of the conversation it seemed to impact perception of who had rights to what material more than who had rights to give things new names, and trickled down into marketing strategy. I can't say who was wrong/right in all that, just that it was observed, and I found it interesting. How big of a geographic area is Dead Camel?

It is a small mountain range around 10 miles long. And the material is not going to be in every part of the mountain. So it is actually a relatively small area.

The Cady's are larger and we don't see people coming up with new names for the same material found in each part of the Cady's.

Or what about obsidian? Do we rename black obsidian after every little area is is found or come up with a bunch of sales names to confuse people making it sound like something different? Black knight obsidian, midnight obsidian, lights out obsidian, ...............  See how ridiculous this would be?

Mahogany obsidian can be found in the United States such as in Oregon. Yet I found my first piece in Iceland. So should I give the Icelandic mahogany obsidian a different unheard of name just because it was found in a different location than the U.S. deposit?

How about unakite, which is found in places all across the U.S. How many new marketing names need to be made up for every location and sublocation of  unakite across the U.S.?  How much confusion will coming up with over 100 new names for unakite be for people?
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VegasJames

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2018, 06:26:51 PM »

   Names...  arrrgh.   Cases in point, Graveyard Point plume agate. Morrisonite as well. Many miners, myself included, used the name of their claim for the Plume Agate they dug at Graveyard Point. Several reasons. Too damn much crappy agate was mined and sold under the name GPP agate. Others simply wanted to scream "new discovery" even though every hill out there has been dug on for 50 years.
   Morrisonite is just the opposite. Anything that looks like Morrisonite and came from that area was sold as Morrisonite to draw more money. Owyhee Picture jasper from the Original claim was beautiful. Now, too many people use the damn name on any piece of crap from the Owyhee Mountain region to get hits on the internet.
   Philly did a great job marketing Dead Camel. What great tales....   Now it is far more recognized than the original jaspers from that area.
Human Nature can be .......  be careful out there.

In some cases I can see this, such as with turquoise since it can vary so much.

But as I pointed out in my last post do we really need to come up with new names for the same exact obsidians and unakite found in different parts of the U.S. or world? Or should the same stone with the same chemical makeup and other characteristics have the same name regardless of where is was obtained?  For example, let's say two mines with different owners and different names right next to each other mine the same exact type, color and other characteristics of jasper does the jasper get different names even though they are identical?

And you bring up quality. So here is another question. Most of the Sleeping Beauty turquoise originally mined was high quality. As they continued mining the quality of the turquoise decreased. So does that mean the lower quality turquoise from the same exact mine is no longer Sleeping Beauty turquoise?
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Jhon P

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2018, 12:33:11 PM »

Hey Neil, I will see if I can get you a good piece. The best color and patterns seems to have a lot of fractures and pitting. I have a piece that I am making a sphere out of that is good and solid but the color and patterns are not the best. The last time I was out there I was just walking the draws and washes collecting float. The road was was soft deep sand and I didn’t want to risk getting my one ton diesel stuck.
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55fossil

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2018, 06:34:00 AM »

Jhon  /  VEGAS;

    Thanks Jhon, I will send you something in return. Yep, the float is what most people sell. But even the stuff that is mined that was for sale at Bend and Madras was full of pits and cracks in a majority of rough. That does not mean you could not get great cabs out of it and it was still pretty.

VEGAS:  Thanks for the input but mine  was a simple statement of facts. People bend words depending on their motive, even some rock dealers. Quality does not change a name, people do. I sell my Graveyard Point plume agate under the name Fantasy Plume agate. Much of it has a distinctive pattern that sets it away from most other GP plume. Northridge plume, Regency plume and Homedale Blue plume are three others from GP that are very distinctive material and easily recognized.
     But just because a piece of GP plume has pinks or reds does not make it Regency. As well, Original Owyhee from Bruce Marcus claim is distinctive and set the bar for Owyhee Picture Jasper. Now many unknowing and others just for profit call all sorts of crap rock "Owyhee Picture Jasper". Just how life is. But it is good for the public to know. So many picture jasper claims have material similar to Owyhee and Cripple Creek jasper that this is bound to happen even just by accident.
Bottom line;  if it is pretty I like it, if the price is reasonable I like it better. If it is mislabeled to generate sales, full of little pits and cracks but called flawless and "porcelain" then I do not like it as much.  keep it fun.
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VegasJames

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2018, 04:06:52 PM »

Jhon  /  VEGAS;

VEGAS:  Thanks for the input but mine  was a simple statement of facts. People bend words depending on their motive, even some rock dealers. Quality does not change a name, people do. I sell my Graveyard Point plume agate under the name Fantasy Plume agate. Much of it has a distinctive pattern that sets it away from most other GP plume. Northridge plume, Regency plume and Homedale Blue plume are three others from GP that are very distinctive material and easily recognized.
     But just because a piece of GP plume has pinks or reds does not make it Regency. As well, Original Owyhee from Bruce Marcus claim is distinctive and set the bar for Owyhee Picture Jasper. Now many unknowing and others just for profit call all sorts of crap rock "Owyhee Picture Jasper". Just how life is. But it is good for the public to know. So many picture jasper claims have material similar to Owyhee and Cripple Creek jasper that this is bound to happen even just by accident.
Bottom line;  if it is pretty I like it, if the price is reasonable I like it better. If it is mislabeled to generate sales, full of little pits and cracks but called flawless and "porcelain" then I do not like it as much.  keep it fun.

Now you are talking about something else. The point I was making was the same material from the same location should not have multiple different names. If there are distinct and sufficient differences then that is a different thing. For example I have 5 very distinct materials from the Dead Camel Mountains.  So no they would not all be named the same. One is identical to the Dead Camel Jasper and so should still be referred to as Dead Camel Jasper if the name is not trademarked, which I doubt it is. And if it is not trademarked it cannot be trademarked as you cannot file for one on a name for something that has been on the market over a year.  Another is identical to what I think they refer to as Red Falcon and same applies. The third is identical to what they call baskinite and same applies. The green I found there I have not seen anyone ever post anything about if from that mountain so I guess I will have to give it a name. Same for the rest of the material I found there that I have not seen named or on the market.

My main point again though is it is ridiculous to come up with multiple names for the same material. As I pointed out unakite is found in so many places in just the U.S. alone. Can you imagine the confusion this could cause if everyone renamed it? There would be hundreds of names making research difficult and some people trying to make it appear that they have some new rarely heard of exotic stone.  Therefore the re-naming of the same exact materials would also promote fraud.

As for "porcelain" this has nothing to do with whether it is full of pits or cracks. Porcelain jasper is a very fine grained jasper.  I have some that has no pits or cracks and I have some that does. Porcelain is not an indicator of quality but rather a type of jasper just like there are different names to identify different types of chalcedony such as "jasper" or "agate", or different names to identify different types of opal.

Also keep in mind that the same types of rocks can vary a lot, even if from the same exact location or claim. That does not mean that every grade or slight difference requires a new name. That was my point about the Sleeping Beauty turquoise in my earlier post. Just because the quality has changed as they continued mining that does not mean they change the name to Dead Beauty turquoise.  It is still Sleeping Beauty turquoise despite the variation. Again to change the name would border on fraud as the person would be trying to make it appear to be a new, rarer form of turquoise when that is not the case.
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55fossil

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2018, 06:08:46 AM »

    okay, now my head hurts....    I was just discussing the topic, not trying to make rules.

    The only part I have issues with is selling a rock under a false name WHEN: the name such as Owyhee picture jasper or say Morrisonite describe a specific rock, from a specific area with well known patterns.

        Here is another fun example of location naming of same rock:  JADE         In this case location can mean everything such as BC, Cassiar or Russian Jade. Also, specific names such as Polar or the different Black Jades. Names and location add value and give a buyer a sense of value when used HONESTLY.

PS:  Porcelain jasper:  This term is so over used it is stupid. It is also used as a name for a type of jasper from a specific location. Not my idea, just how it is.
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VegasJames

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2018, 06:52:19 AM »

If a specific rock with specific characteristics from a specific area I have no problem as I mentioned. What I said was I disagree with giving multiple names to the same material from the same location.

As for jade there are many forms. Nephrite and jadeite, which sub-categories such as white, jade, black jade, lavender jade, etc. Just like there is precious opal and common opal with many sub-categories such as boulder opal, jelly opal, Ethiopian opal, etc, etc, etc, with about 300 forms of opal. So we do have to differentiate DIFFERENT materials from DIFFERENT locations. We don't give dozens of different names for BC jade or dozens of different names for Mexican jelly opal from the same location when it is all the same material.

As for porcelain jasper this is a specific characteristic of some jaspers, not a locational name. As I mentioned before porcelain jaspers are very fine grained jaspers that due to their characteristics take a very high polish. I have quite a bit of it laying around here. Is the name over used as a sales tool? Yes. As is making up a bunch of exotic names for the same material to make it appear different and less common. As an example Tiffany stone, which is also called "opalized fluorite (misleading term since fluorite does not opalize), ice cream opal (again misleading since it is not opal), bertrandite (misleading because this mineral found various places around the world may or may not be present in the stone due to ultra low level of presence), etc.
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55fossil

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2018, 02:28:24 PM »

Vegas, this ain't about your thoughts. It is about what I see as common practice today... which really screws up novices and buyers.

BC JADE:   There are dozens of location names as well as accepted Trade names such as Polar Jade. There is an opal from Spencer, Idaho which is named Ice Cream Opal.

    So many people call there jaspers porcelain it is a worthless term. I have yet to find the term defined for jasper in any reputable book with a scientific notation.

   I do not try and define what is correct and what everyone else should do. I do state what I find, in my opinion, to be common practice. Some of those practices bother me.
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finegemdesigns

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2018, 04:14:11 PM »

Re: "Porcelain" jasper (as a type due to grain). The only jasper I've heard everyone agree on is Willow Creek Jasper. Some also include Morrisonite.
The hardest toughest jasper I've ever seen is Polychrome Jasper which destroys diamond saws.

 :dontknow:

 But is Polychrome ever marketed as "Porcelain?"
And how do you measure the level of "fine grained" to separate a "Porcelain" jasper from a non porcelain jasper?
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VegasJames

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2018, 05:48:39 PM »

Vegas, this ain't about your thoughts. It is about what I see as common practice today... which really screws up novices and buyers.

BC JADE:   There are dozens of location names as well as accepted Trade names such as Polar Jade. There is an opal from Spencer, Idaho which is named Ice Cream Opal.

    So many people call there jaspers porcelain it is a worthless term. I have yet to find the term defined for jasper in any reputable book with a scientific notation.

   I do not try and define what is correct and what everyone else should do. I do state what I find, in my opinion, to be common practice. Some of those practices bother me.

Again if the jade is from different locations within the same region and has different characteristics I don't see a problem with different names. Just like all the jaspers from California do not have the same name. There are MANY DIFFERENT  types of jasper found in the same region called California.

As for your reference to ice cream opal from Idaho this backs my point about the confusion multiple names for the same material causes since the same name can be applied to different stones leading to confusion. In this case the name ice cream opal also being applied to Tiffany stone.

And speaking of Tiffany stone can you show me any term defining Tiffany stone from a reputable book with a scientific notation? I doubt it. So does that mean Tiffany stone does not exist?
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VegasJames

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2018, 05:57:17 PM »

Re: "Porcelain" jasper (as a type due to grain). The only jasper I've heard everyone agree on is Willow Creek Jasper. Some also include Morrisonite.
The hardest toughest jasper I've ever seen is Polychrome Jasper which destroys diamond saws.

 :dontknow:

 But is Polychrome ever marketed as "Porcelain?"
And how do you measure the level of "fine grained" to separate a "Porcelain" jasper from a non porcelain jasper?

There are several jaspers I gave seen categorized as porcelain jaspers including Dead Camel.  What I have found personally is that these jaspers have a much slicker feel than regular jasper, even more than opal, and I have tumbled some without any grit or polish and the stones are taking on a very high polish. Something I have not found with other jaspers. So there is obviously some type of difference in structure.

As for the grain this should be observable with microscopy.  Electron microscopy showing the differences between the jaspers would be really interesting.
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rocks2dust

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2018, 07:06:05 PM »

Re: "Porcelain" jasper (as a type due to grain). The only jasper I've heard everyone agree on is Willow Creek Jasper. Some also include Morrisonite.
The term "Porcelain jasper" has a long history, going back to at least the 18th century in old mineralogy books I've read. It was distinguished from "Common jasper" by its greater silica content, slightly greater hardness, ability to fuse under high heat, its comparative tendency to shatter more easily (more like glass), generally greater weight, shinier fracture. It also took to burnishing (i.e., by rubbing the stone against itself back in the days before modern polishes), and producing a higher polish more readily than those considered in the "Common jasper" category. Most of the "Porcelain jaspers" described in early literature came from Europe and Asia. Back in the 1950s and 1960s, these were still the characteristics denoted by the term when it began to be applied to jaspers in western North America: Morrisonite, Deschutes, Imperial, and later, Willow Creek. The term started getting applied to just about anything in the 1990s (blame JTV, ebay, etc.). That doesn't mean that there aren't others that fit the old definition discovered since (I'd say Bruneau likely qualifies), but most newer material now getting that label slapped on does not (including the "Porcelainite" from Mexico).

The "ring test" was one of the initial tests used by old-timers to distinguish (Porcelain jasper can ring like fine crystal when lightly tapped, shards tinkled like a crystal chandelier when striking each other and sound like a breaking window when dropped and shattering).  It is inconceivable that every piece from a given deposit has ever met the "Porcelain" designation, either, but was a general characteristic of material from those sources.

Perhaps in this age of diamond and other hard, super-fine polishes, the distinction is less useful. Some people can get a mirror shine from just about anything these days.
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VegasJames

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2018, 07:25:05 PM »

Re: "Porcelain" jasper (as a type due to grain). The only jasper I've heard everyone agree on is Willow Creek Jasper. Some also include Morrisonite.
The term "Porcelain jasper" has a long history, going back to at least the 18th century in old mineralogy books I've read. It was distinguished from "Common jasper" by its greater silica content, slightly greater hardness, ability to fuse under high heat, its comparative tendency to shatter more easily (more like glass), generally greater weight, shinier fracture. It also took to burnishing (i.e., by rubbing the stone against itself back in the days before modern polishes), and producing a higher polish more readily than those considered in the "Common jasper" category. Most of the "Porcelain jaspers" described in early literature came from Europe and Asia. Back in the 1950s and 1960s, these were still the characteristics denoted by the term when it began to be applied to jaspers in western North America: Morrisonite, Deschutes, Imperial, and later, Willow Creek. The term started getting applied to just about anything in the 1990s (blame JTV, ebay, etc.). That doesn't mean that there aren't others that fit the old definition discovered since (I'd say Bruneau likely qualifies), but most newer material now getting that label slapped on does not (including the "Porcelainite" from Mexico).

The "ring test" was one of the initial tests used by old-timers to distinguish (Porcelain jasper can ring like fine crystal when lightly tapped, shards tinkled like a crystal chandelier when striking each other and sound like a breaking window when dropped and shattering).  It is inconceivable that every piece from a given deposit has ever met the "Porcelain" designation, either, but was a general characteristic of material from those sources.

Perhaps in this age of diamond and other hard, super-fine polishes, the distinction is less useful. Some people can get a mirror shine from just about anything these days.

Thanks for the extra information. I noticed the sound difference just a little while ago. I have someone who buys rocks from me and he was here a few hours ago. When I went to put  crate of the Lahontan jasper away heard that glass-like sound when I put the crate down.

The jasper is very different than other jaspers I have collected. One characteristic again is a very slick and shiny surface in the raw.
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VegasJames

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Re: Dead Camel Mountain jasper cabachons
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2018, 02:45:54 AM »

This link as posted in an old thread and discusses porcelain jasper:

http://www.theimage.com/newgems/quartz/jasper/
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