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Author Topic: Debate on Opalised Human Skull  (Read 1574 times)

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Asianfire

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Debate on Opalised Human Skull
« on: June 02, 2015, 07:57:17 AM »


Opalised Human Skull

Postby peterpan » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:06 am
An Opalised Human Skull, impossible!!!, maybe, maybe not.
It was 1965, I was with a grand old gentleman named Jules Joris at my weekly Diamond lesson, Jules was the father of diamond mining in Australia, commercially mining Diamonds at Copeton NSW in the 1930s, as with each lesson, we talked about everything pertaining to gems, the subject of Opal came up and within the conversation, Jules made the statement " I have seen a Human skull completely opalised", now, I was just an inexperienced novice in those days, so all I could say was wow that must be valuable.
I entered the Opal industry in 1968 as a dealer and up until around 2006 always believed Opal was 20 to 60 million years old, but at the Lightning Ridge opal symposium around 2006 a scientific paper was presented proving that Lightning Ridge Opal may still be forming now and that the actual age avaraged just 4000 years, you may say,how come Dinosaur bones are discovered Opalised, these are cavity infills after the bones have decayed, so could fit the timeframe.
So maybe Jules was right, who knows.
Just a footnote about NSW diamonds, there is a variety found which is so tough it cannot be commercially cut, comprising around 20% of the commercial production, it has no crystal structure, the grain is totally interlocked like Jade, it is no harder than normal Diamond, but so tough it takes a week to cut one facet using the same variety powdered, it is called Can-i-faire I have a few rough stones in my posession.
If you google Jules Joris, you will see that a book was written about him, called Stone of Destiny by Ion l idriess



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Postby Rockranger » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:56 pm
Hello Pete! Pleased to meet.
Interesting read, all I could find on it was this info and its the 50th one found.
http://austhrutime.com/wlh-50.htm



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Postby OpalSupreme » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:11 pm
Interesting !
I wish to see opalised skull.
Btw - prehistoric humans existed more then 250 000 years ago :!: ...so I guess that is enough time :)
(of course if we believe in Darwinism :lol: )

Also about forming opals - maybe under some 'perfect' conditions (pressure, temp. ,,, etc) silica is forming much quicker then we think :idea: :?:

Greets



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Postby PinkDiamond » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:58 am
Wow, PP, welcome to the forum. I can see already you're going to be a barrel of fun for us to pick your brian. (brian=brain here on OA after a typo that gave us that long-standing joke) :lol:

    peterpan wrote:
    Sorry, can't post photos of deceased persons here



Why not? We post pics of opalized squid arms, why not an opalized human cranium? :?:

As for opals taking eons to form, I also believe that's hogwash since Len Cram has been growing opals in his shed for years. :mrgreen:

Check this out:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3559&p=51991&hilit=growing+opals#p51991

As for the NSW diamonds, I had never heard that and if you have links to info on them I'm sure we'd all appreciate you posting them, either here, or in the diamond thread in the GAP section (Gemstone Advisory Panel). viewforum.php?f=39

I'm really looking forward to your input, so again, warmest welcome to the board. :D



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Postby peterpan » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:05 am
Thanks for the welcome message.
Re the NSW diamonds, i'm sure if you google it you will find plenty of info, but few people know about the hard variety, it found a use in mining drill bits, a company called Diamond and Boart made Drill bits using this type of stone, they stole a march on the rest of the world, their bits could drill 10 times as far as any other.
Another little known fact, Australia holds the world record for the amount of diamonds produced from a single load (1 Ton) of wash, 1800 cts, produced at Bingara NSW in the early 1900s,this info was taken from actual mining records
Commercial Diamonds were produced at Gulgong NSW, Bingara, Copeton and Capertee, all in NSW.
The Dept of Minerals and Energy has a colour publication on Australian Diamonds, including the NSW fields, all of which have been abandoned now, NSW diamonds have been a lifelong study of mi'ne, so I will try not to bore you any more.



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Postby PinkDiamond » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:50 am
From what I understand, Mr Cram is a very private person, and he has no interest in ruining the opal industry so he keeps what he does private for the most part, although I seem to remember seeing some pics of jars with opals growing in them regarding his experiments. The article I posted is just what I could find on it doing a search, and I only chose one, so maybe that is their goal to disprove evolution, I have no idea, but considering the fact that even Darwin didn't believe in his own theory of evolution, I'm glad it does point to the rapid formation of opals to open up people's minds to the possibilities. ;)




Re: Opalised Human Skull

Postby itsandbits1 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:58 am

    PinkDiamond wrote:
    even Darwin didn't believe in his own theory of evolution, ;)


this is an oft quoted falicy that can be investigated if any one wishes to.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2009/03/31/darwins-deathbed-conversion-legend

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Re: Debate on Opalised Human Skull
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2015, 07:58:00 AM »


Re: Opalised Human Skull

Postby PinkDiamond » Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:52 am
Sorry, I never heard of any deathbed conversion, but I'm not surprised there's a rumor like that out there.

The full title of his book that was first published in 1859 was, "On the Origin of the Species by Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life". Mind you, he was a rich kid from a wealthy family, who only had 2 years of medical school under his belt when he dropped out, and barely at that since he was carousing in the bars with his friends instead of studying, so he barely passed the courses, and had no other scientific training. He had no direction in life, so his father planned to get him a well paying position as an Anglican minister, when a relative got him a non-paying job as a 'naturalist' on a ship that planned to sail around the world. His life changed forever after being initiated into a South American native culture's witchcraft, taking part in a ceremony, after which his health took on a weakened state, and he spent the rest of his life in the house he inherited, writing theories that eliminated a Creator, as all cultures had believed since the beginning of time.

His first edition concentrated on what he regarded as 'natural selection' and 'survival of the fittest', but by his 6th edition he considered them to both mean the same thing, but thought that 'survival of the fittest' was the more accurate description. Yet by the time he wrote a later book, "Descent of Man" in 1871, he had changed his mind about 'natural selection' and considered it a hopeless mechanism, and went back to Lamarckism because he knew his theory was crumbling, and he never did provide concrete evidence of his theory, just stories, and he spent inordinate periods of time coming up with reasons why the facts he needed were not available, apparently thinking science wasn't necessary.

From "Charles Darwin, Life and Letters", 1887, Vol. 2, pg 229

    Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a phantasy"



From Charles Darwin, Origin of the Species, 1860, pg 178, quoted from Harvard Classics, 1909 edition, Vol.11

    Long before the reader has arrived at this part of my work, a crowd of difficulties will have occurred to him. Some of them are so serious that to this day I can hardly reflect on them without in some degree becoming staggered



Obviously the man was never a scientist, and knew nothing about genetics, since he married his first cousin, resulting in 7 children, all of whom had physical and/or mental disorders. Need I say more? :lol:

Had I seen a rumor of a deathbed conversion I would have verified it and found it to be bogus. What I just told you can be looked up. ;)



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby Kane826 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:29 am
Len Cram and his opal production was mentioned in latest Gems&Jewellery edition, I can check it when I get back home as I'm at work now, but I think Jack Ogden visited him. What I remember for sure is that it is supposed to be based on redeposition from local opal dirt, facilitated by undisclosed (obviously) kind of electrolyte. The process takes a couple of months but there seems to be a problem with solidification and hardening which could of course be a matter of time. In geological sense couple hundred years for instance is nothing... I have to say that from my point of view I don't see any connection between possible fast opal formation and proving Gods existence or Biblical story, not to mention that religions were present from beginning of recorded history and I don't see why Christianity would be better than any of them.



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby OpalSupreme » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:26 am
Cool topic. I have mentioned the Darwin because we can't really be sure about all the million years evolution stuff neither the religion.
But for opals - what about the pressure - I don't know how he grow his opals but in my opinion there should be huge amount of pressure to stabilize and create 'real' opal - but this only my thoughts - and I can imagine that without pressure you will grow only 'opal sponge' :lol: :lol: :lol:



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby peterpan » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:04 pm
I have visited Len and been in his shed, without telling any of his secrets i can say, the transition from liquid to solid is virtually instantaneous, there is no heat or pressure involved, cant say any more.



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby mick » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:22 pm
There is no such thing as an opalised human skull. Some skulls have been found in caves around the world encased in minerals ala stalectites forming.

Opal in the shed? all hocus pocus. There is a vid on youtibe shows how opal can be made scientifically in the lab, you can go to peer reviewed paper on it. The proof of the pudding is in the 36,000 x magnification through the electron microscope. Whatever Len has conjured up. its not close to the real deal, no strength, no molecular formation let alone bonding. Cram has been in the Industry for decades, he has written some good books.



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby Gecko109 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:49 pm
Im sorry, but I have to agree with Mick that the homemade "perfect" opal growing story is crap. From what I have read about Cram, he is a devout Christian and firm believer in creationism. His claims of producing perfect, natural opal in very short time frames are not only simply stories at this point, but are only backed up by "friends" of his who have claimed to see his handy work. After reading through the very long story on his "experiments" in the creationism magazine article, I was simply insulted by the constant use of the word "scientific" and "experiment". I have an intense background in science, and the golden rule about any scientific experiment that claims to PROVE something is that it has to be repeatable by other scientists. None of that has occured thus far, so nothing has been "proven" by Mr. Cram and his shed/lab.

What troubles me just as much, if not more than the lack of repeatability by independent labs is the very strong tie of Mr. Cram's "experiments" and the pushing of the creationist viewpoint. As an objective thinker, reading through this story has shown that there is a definitive agenda. Had this story not contained so much anti-evolutionary commentary, it would at least have been semi credible. But to any other objective thinker (creation vs evolution personal beliefs aside) its easy to see the true motivation for such a story.

From what I understand, Mr. Cram is a wonderful writer and photographer of all things opal related. I know he is a well respected member of the opal community. But none of that negates the fact that his "experiments" are not any sort of proof of anything. Let those experiments and findings be replicated by independent labs around the world, and only then will there be any type of proof. Until then, this story is simply.....well, a story.


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Re: Debate on Opalised Human Skull
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2015, 07:58:18 AM »


Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby OpalSupreme » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:28 pm

    peterpan wrote:
    I have visited Len and been in his shed, without telling any of his secrets i can say, the transition from liquid to solid is virtually instantaneous, there is no heat or pressure involved, cant say any more.



that is my point - no pressure! - without it I can't imagine that something can grow and change to rock - the rocks don't grow like pizza :)
that is why I think even if all this is true - then this 'opals' can't be really same as rock = stable
still I don't have any knowledge about growing opals so this is only what I think :)

only Jesus can change liquid to opal :lol: (sorry for this joke - please no offense)



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby peterpan » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:07 am
Hi gecko, Len is the first to admit , his Opal is not perfect, I have handled the Opal, it feels like rock, it looks like rock, and it makes a noise like rock when you drop it on to the desk, I purchased some triplets at the ridge somewhere around the late 1970's or early 80's, they were the most vivid and spectacular i had ever seen, so good i could'nt believe they were real, the seller could'nt or would'nt reveal where they came from, a retailer offered me $800 for 1 of the 40x30 stones, thats a big price for a triplet, around 12 months later there were rumblings in the industry that synthetic opal had been created, much consternation.
As far as i know it was developed by len in conjunction with the CSIRO, so there was obviously plenty of scientific input.
I am an athiest and a firm believer in evolution, so in my many long discussions with len i have stayed firnly away from religion.
As far as i know , other than the parcel of triplets i purchased, there has never been any commercialisation of his opal ,
But to see hundreds of half litre jars full of thr most amazing , vibrant colours in a clear base is a most mind bending experience.
I will try to coax len into letting me do some extensive Photography in his lab/shed, not optimistic, he is in my age bracket, so maybe it may happen.
Re the no heat no pressure instant transformation from a liquid to a solid, quick drying concrete is just that, so with a catalist it certainly can happen.



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby OpalSupreme » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:58 am
Yes Sir true about concrete :)
but concrete it's not really rock . glue also can be liquid and change to solid - or even water can change to ice but I didn't meant that you can't change liquid to solid
.. just logically thinking > nature is using pressure to create opals from silica > so why not to do the same ? maybe this will make opal with atoms much more squeezed together - and this should make the opal more stable (I guess)
* again sorry for my poor eng. and all the funky terminology - hope you know what I mean

Greetings



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby peterpan » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:34 am
To opalsupreme, yes i know what you mean, you could be right, noboby knows how opal formed in nature, many plausable scientific theorys abound re the method of formation, but they are all just theory, no concrete? facts have emerged, so you could be as correct as anyone, thank you for your input.
Don't apologise for your english, it's probably better than mi'ne



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby OpalSupreme » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:46 am
thank you but when it comes to some sophisticated words like this or scientific terminology then is hard for me to express some of my thoughts and I might use simple words to explain myself < which not always sound smart :)

about the opal forming this was only my 1st thought that there should be pressure for stabilizing the atoms - but again really don't have this type of knowledge
..although I believe that some huge company with super technology could create super opal 'easy' but this will probably cost a lot more then it's worth
..so this will never happen which for me is good because we don't have to worry that the opal which we want to buy is fake/created ... like with diamonds or other gems.
Opal for me is truly King of gems !

and thanks for your great input to the forum - very good stuff in my opinion since I'm still big amateur.



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby Kane826 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:44 am
OpalSupreme- do you think you need tremendous amount of pressure to solidify a stone? Think again especially when considering silica...need more hint?ok- caves... Let's not even mention host of other minerals that can crystalise "just like that" without tonnes of rocks on top of them. Also I see my previous post become suddenly invisible, do you know what GEM-A is? Well anyway, I don't think that Jack Ogden would put his reputation in jeopardy by writing utter nonsense, if you need a reference- Gems&Jewellery Autumn 2012, actually I'll just post a link http://www.gem-a.com/publications/gems--jewellery.aspx . I do not support creationism either, but even if I could grow opal in a jar within a day it just proves.... that I can grow it fast and nothing more, if someone wants to use such a fact to support their beliefs, it's a right I cannot deny, but like I said it doesn't prove it. Funny thing is he doesn't need peer review either because he's not trying to prove it to anyone but himself :)



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby OpalSupreme » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:05 am
Ok Kane - you right but also i didn't say that there must be the pressure to create all rocks/minerals .. and I don't think opal have crystal form (like quartz crystal ..etc) ... you can grow your salt crystal in the water with salt without any pressure but again opal doesn't form crystals (please correct me if I'm wrong)
And this was just my thoughts - obviously no facts :)



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby Kane826 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:52 am
Yes the structure is not exactly crystalline, but it's not exactly completly amorphous either as that of a glass... you can try reading wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal although I would say the explanation is rather vague...there may be some cristobalite and tridymite on microscale as I understand it but I still have a lot to learn before, if ever, I claim I know anything for sure. This way or another we do not know exactly how does the opal form and there may be more than one way it is possible I suspect, give a number of different opal varieties out there, that's why I never dismiss any possibility out of hand, after all our science is faaar from perfection...but if we prefer to spend the money on bombing ourselves whats to expect? In the end I don't know if Len is able to make that opal or not but when I hear- electrolyte Ion transfer, it sounds believeable enough to consider...



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby Willowfrond » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:33 am
Hi well I'm an evolutionist but a Lemark evolutionist not Darwin for too many reasons to list.
I think pressure would actually be the last thing you need to form opal as it would force the water out?

On the religious side, I have always wondered why all these people who believe that the world was created by a deity in 7 days have such a problem with evolution.....they were Gods' seven days not ours and as he is so ALL powerful each one could have lasted millions of years no? The word "day" to us means sunrise to sunrise perhaps it does not to God?or perhaps the translations got it wrong?or perhaps God knew that the people he was telling way back then could not conceive of millions of years and he was keeping it simple for them?????



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby OpalCreations » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:32 pm
I'm not sure why people think it's such a stretch that one could grow a natural type opal in a lab, or even a shed, I've personally experimented with it and to my surprise actually had some success.

Nothing I created was even near "cut worthy", but I proved to myself that I was actually on the right track and had I had more time before becoming ill with cancer and other things I probably would have eventually ended up where Len Cram did in his experiments. Maybe I'll start experimenting again once I recover more.

Here's a simple experiment, take some sodium silicate or potassium silicate and simply add different minerals to it, even a multivitamin will have an effect and watch what happens in a very short amount of time, it solidifies into hard silica.

It's colourless, but it is technically a "solid" silica now, just like an opal. Start messing around with different electrolytes, different types and ratios of minerals small electrical charges and even electromagnetic pulses and you'd be very surprised what happens, colour starts forming.

It doesn't require pressure or immense heat to form, just the right chemicals and electric charges to be present to form, but I'm sure that different types of opals are actually created by heat and pressure as well.

It is my firm belief that the tiny spheres in an opal that bind together to give the various colour attributes of an opal are simply formed by electrical charges in certain forms, depending on what part of the earth they are formed.

I've seen whole crocodile skeletons that were opalized, and interestingly enough these skeletons were not millions of years old, while crocodiles have not changed much over millions of years, modern crocs do had traits that easily identify them as modern, so how did that happen?

I also believe that Welo opal is VERY young. :)



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby SwordfishMining » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:54 am
In Virgin Valley we hope for precious opal skulls, would be matrix most likely, but with that blinding play of color. I can't remember ever seeing one. I have a snake head but it's a cast with nothing left but the print in the mud of the original whatever. At the Peacock last year somebody found a "porcine" thing I also didn't ever see pictures of. I've got precious bone from there but it was soft. Also have a single good piece of mammal with teal common opal in the marrow. They figure our beds were made 12mya 16 mya if you push it. A geologist was telling my friend they thought the magma pool may have emptied in as little as 200,000 years forming the Calderas we are in the middle of. 30 miles wide, then a smaller 7 mile wide, 16 volcanoes/extinct vents or so around or in it now that capped the mesas. Common and precious opals are in that layer too. I used to "opalise" my change by throwing it in with the soak off the mud water. American coins are little batteries of silver over zinc or copper and it made them sparkle like mother of opal. Colorful oxidation at the least with discernible shades. Trouble is nobody looks at their change so I quit bothering. Too busy looking at wood that turned to gem.



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby Rockranger » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:20 pm
I have pondered that, how old the opal in BC might be. Just recently they happened to find the oldest rock formations or prelife on earth found at the bottom of Pavillion lake in BC. Nasa and scientist's are sending drones down for samples because its the same stuff I hear there finding on Mars and its not that far from the opal and agate claims.
Here is some info on it.

Looking for the origins of life in a B.C. lake
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/looki ... -1.1064427



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby mick » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:12 pm
I thought about not replying, but you can take what I have to say or leave it, I dont mind.

I have asked the experts, I just got the last answer of 5 on this topic.

The obvious was stated in various forms of vernacular. Opal takes a lot longer to form than the time Humans have been around. It also formed before Hmans formed. So there are no eal Opalized human skills. Are there human skulls impregnated or covered with minerals? yes.



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby OpalCreations » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:28 am

    mick wrote:
    I thought about not replying, but you can take what I have to say or leave it, I dont mind.

    I have asked the experts, I just got the last answer of 5 on this topic.

    The obvious was stated in various forms of vernacular. Opal takes a lot longer to form than the time Humans have been around. It also formed before Hmans formed. So there are no eal Opalized human skills. Are there human skulls impregnated or covered with minerals? yes.



Hey Mick, glad you replied, your opinions are valued here!

Everyone has the right to believe what they want, it's called freedom, something that is slowly being taken from all of us.

I only know what I can see with my own 2 eyes, and what the results of my own experiments have been, it doesn't mean diddly until I can actually grow a REAL finished opal in the lab just like you'd find in nature, until that happens, the jury is out on when exactly opal forms. Everyone's opinions and research is valid!

I'm certainly no scientist that's for sure, just someone with a curious mind and a passion for opal.

I'd sure like to "see" a pic of an opalized human skull, I've searched but found nothing.
:)



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby Rockranger » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:38 am
Just going to confirm with you John, wasn't most Peacock and VV opal formed by replacement in logs, limb cast, etc...? And first found scattered on the surface in the valley. When I watched the video it shows you guys digging in a clay layer. So it makes me think it was formed when life was present.
Mex, Canadian, and Welo is found in Basalt vesiculles which I understand the opal is pushed from below and mixed magically with something from above for formation, underwater or not I dont know for certain. So this makes me think as older before life as Mick stats.
The thing that throws me for a loop is Australian because it was formed both on sealife such as muscles, shells, etc....and in rock?
Any thoughts?



Re: Opalised Human Skull

Unread postby SwordfishMining » Thu May 01, 2014 12:02 am
Hiya; Yes in the beginning the opal was on the surface. The natives thought the stones contained spirits so they left them alone and I've only seen a couple artifacts ever made from opal. The Museum in Klamath Falls has an arrowhead that is precious and I have a broken knife of contra luz. Where I'm could not say, but I know it's safely tucked away. Our "clay" was Lahars off the sides of volcanoes sluicing forests with them into a shallow sea. The layers are deformed and laid on a eroded surface to start. The opal is mainly in woods that decomposed well in the mud, or not, depending on the specific permeability of the clay where it was. The animals caught got the same treatment. Teeth are the most common fossil with major bones next. There are a couple layers of sea that has clams and matrix precious in it exposed on a claim. I've heard of opal fish from the Bonanza but never seen one. This was 12-16 million years ago so there was a thriving Miocene population of animals. Mostly we get camel and horse parts from "the layer", but the Peacock got a "pig" recently. The opal has formed not just in that mud layer but others in the sequence too. The top lava caps have some "black rock" type opal that forms in gas bubbles-obviously after it cooled. There is a boulder opal like layer in precious veins of bog agate you split to expose the color. (A guy by there is mining matrix - you have not seen it yet on the market, but it is getting worked up somewhere somehow. Purple color mainly from what I've heard) So we had a forest landscape of stuff over a caldera that 30 mile wide cratered, filled, 7 mile wide cratered, filled as 15 or so volcanoes were emptying the magma chamber by us because the faults got caught here and the rupture went down to magma. All the while being reforested between eruptions. There were lots of little lakes and ponds that formed bowls for silica gel from the ash or waters to get "caught" in. ((From the acid rain going through forest and ash or hot springs coming up (explains the uranium better)We have science that thinks the silica gel then grew into the spaces as precious opal. The top layers of basalt were altered while they were underground, now they are exposed, but when the opal was made they were at the lab site underground, not the exposed site today. I've seen precious from the top and heard of it from the bottom of 600' drill holes. We have not got to the bestest with the mostest layer yet. My Swordfish Area has not been mined since Sinkankis was out chipping black opal in Mrs. Lockheeds tunnel. (Since flooded and I'm not funded to re-open yet.) Layers of Diatomic earth have opalized when caught in the bowl and form the Florescent, moss, and common deposits.

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