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[Grayco]

Hello Everyone,
about a month ago I purchased a bunch of Lapidary equipment from an estate sale.  I never met Jim Scheirbeck but he was a rockhound for a long time and had collected a lot of equipment. I see his craftsmanship and foresight in some of the equipment I acquired.  I believe Jim built this 20" saw.

When I found it, the wheels were all but buried in mud. There was 4" of water standing in the box.  The whole saw was buried in other lapidary stuff. 
The carriage was frozen on the slides and the power drive engagement was all frozen up.  After I got it home I plugged it in and found nothing ran.

I cleaned the slides and worked for a couple hours to get the carriage to move.  After working it back and forth with lots of PB Blaster, the bushings cleared up and the carriage moved easily.  I also sprayed the drive engagement mechanism and freed it up.  It still needs to be disassembled and cleaned but for now it functions.

I turned my attention to the electrical.  All the wiring was ancient.  The wires were fabric insulated.  I replaced all the wiring to both motors.
   Yahoo! Both motors run and appear to be in good condition.

Now it time to start working on it.  Last night I got out my scrapers, brushes and shop vac to begin cleaning it.  There was a lot of material in the box and the water has caused some rusting.  I got most of the box cleaned and then it was time to empty the sump.  Yes, my saw has a sump.

Welded to the bottom of the box is a 3" wide radial sump that allows the 20" blade to spin below the bottom of the box.  Below the radial sump is what looks like a 1 foot section of the top of a compressed gas bottle with a 2" pipe nipple welded to the bottom of it.  This is the oil reservoir.  It looks like it can hold a couple gallons of oil and the blade will dip down into it as it spins.

Clean the sump?  OK, I removed the 2" pipe cap from the bottom of the reservoir expecting the gallon or so of water to pour out.  Nope.
I stuck a bar down through the sump and finally managed to push it through the bottom opening.  About a half gallon of water came out.  The rest of the reservoir is full of mud. Mud and sticks and pieces of plastic and muck.  I worked on emptying it for another hour.  Tonight, I'll haul it outside and hose it out.

Hmmm  Ok the reservoir is a sludge trap. There is a pipe coming off the top of the reservoir that I see is for draining the oil prior to cleaning the sludge trap.  This system screams "Please put a filtered oil system with a supply pump on here"!

The plan;
Finish cleaning the box, sump and reservoir.

Pull the saw motor, fix the motor mount up.

Clean and check the motor out (repair as needed)

Pull the carriage drive system out.  Clean the engagement mechanism. Clean it, fix it, make it pretty.

Check out the spindle bearings.  So far they seem to be good.

Clean and paint the box.  I'm liking Rustoleum silver hammered finish paint for this. Still debating about painting the inside.

Clean up the lid.

Clean up ALL the wiring.  It's missing box covers and is not really configured the way I want it.

Make a belt cover.  I don't have sheet metal tools so I am considering wood.  I think it may work.

SO IT BEGINS!   

[peruano]

Wow, that's a beauty.  Only time will tell whether you like that sump or not.  Could it be that this is a saw that originally was a (say) 12" and someone decided to make it bigger by cutting out the sump for blade clearance?  Ideally all the gunk will end up in the sump, but with no standing oil in the tank itself sludge may accumulate there and need to be scrapped out like any other saw (think about the rv tank that is emptied too often with inadequate liquid that results in an iceberg).  Do I almost see a second motor that provides the power feed (seen from back end of saw)?  Are all the black stains around most of the integral bolts there because you've been working with solvents to loosen them or has some other major renovation caused them to have a different patina?  The dimensions are hard to conjure from photos but is the vice really as big as one would build for a 20" saw?  You have a real project there and I'm sure it will work well once you learn its characteristics (and some of them are truly unique).  BTW I made a blade guard by cutting up the plastic flat tray that bread products are delivered in (light, rust proof, and easy to work with); there is a photo somewhere describing it.  Congratulations on your treasure. 

[Ryaly2dogs]

Great photos, with something that peculiar looking, you HAVE to give it a name!  Maybe Mongrel?  :)

I appreciate your perseverance...I too have acquired a few such old saws, and went through them to get them to work; it is fun and messy work, best done with an open beer; but very rewarding, especially in the end when it purrs like a kitten.  With the drop down sump feature, I'd have to agree with Peruano that the blade size was probably increased likely necessitating creating the "basement" for clearance.  At least the owner thought big when he built the original box.  It DOES scream for oil sump pump with filter.  That would make life much simpler for you down the road.

A few tips from one who learned the harder way; if it did have standing water in it for some unknown time, check carefully for rust holes.  I'd recommend after a thorough cleaning, shining a bright light into the saw box with lights turned off to look for the telltale pinholes.  JB Weld works pretty well as a filler.  Once you're ready to fill her with oil, my recommendation is do water first, I found my undetected pin hole the morning after filling my saw with 5 gallons of brand new mineral oil, 2 of which ended up on the garage floor!

Have fun with it! 
 
 

[Grayco]

Could it be that this is a saw that originally was a (say) 12" and someone decided to make it bigger by cutting out the sump for blade clearance? 

Do I almost see a second motor that provides the power feed (seen from back end of saw)?

 Are all the black stains around most of the integral bolts there because you've been working with solvents to loosen them or has some other major renovation caused them to have a different patina? 

The dimensions are hard to conjure from photos but is the vice really as big as one would build for a 20" saw? 

You have a real project there and I'm sure it will work well once you learn its characteristics (and some of them are truly unique). 

BTW I made a blade guard by cutting up the plastic flat tray that bread products are delivered in (light, rust proof, and easy to work with); there is a photo somewhere describing it.  Congratulations on your treasure.

It may have started life as a smaller saw.  It's just over 7" from the spindle center to the bottom of the box, so it may have started out as a 14" saw.

You do in fact see a second motor.  It appears to be a BBQ motor.  The sprocket also has a spring loaded slip clutch kind of mechanism on it.

The black stains are actually areas with no rust.  The metal is smooth and relatively clean.  It almost looks like these are areas where oil effected the patina.(rust)

The attached photo shows the vise near full open.  The jaws are about 10-1/2 " apart.

It is a great project and other than cleaning it up, I don't think it needs much.  I think the point of the sump/reservoir is to reduce the amount of oil it needs.  I think a couple gallons will fill it to a usable level.  As it cuts the heavy stuff will sink into the reservoir/sludge trap and the cleaner stuff will be near the top.  I really like the idea of a filter and pump.

I'm watching for old bicycles with fenders I can use.  Bikes don't have fenders anymore.  What's with that? people are ok with mud strips up and down their front and back now?  Kids...

Thanks for your inputs and encouragement.
.

[Grayco]

Great photos, with something that peculiar looking, you HAVE to give it a name!  Maybe Mongrel?  :)

I appreciate your perseverance...I too have acquired a few such old saws, and went through them to get them to work; it is fun and messy work, best done with an open beer; but very rewarding, especially in the end when it purrs like a kitten.

 With the drop down sump feature, I'd have to agree with Peruano that the blade size was probably increased likely necessitating creating the "basement" for clearance.  At least the owner thought big when he built the original box.  It DOES scream for oil sump pump with filter.  That would make life much simpler for you down the road.

A few tips from one who learned the harder way; if it did have standing water in it for some unknown time, check carefully for rust holes.  I'd recommend after a thorough cleaning, shining a bright light into the saw box with lights turned off to look for the telltale pinholes.  JB Weld works pretty well as a filler.  Once you're ready to fill her with oil, my recommendation is do water first, I found my undetected pin hole the morning after filling my saw with 5 gallons of brand new mineral oil, 2 of which ended up on the garage floor!

Have fun with it! 
 

I do need to name it.  I hate this but when I look at it the sump reminds me of a cows udder.  I has occurred to me to paint it up like a jersey cow... YUK... NOOO! I can't do it!

The was a nice rock in the vise when I got the saw.  The cut was really smooth and clean.  I'm very anxious to run it.  But for now... I have my coveralls, I have the space and I have the time.  I'll clean her and put a nice coat of paint (non-bovine) and put her to work.

As I mentioned to Peruano, If it started out smaller it was probably a 14". 

Thanks for the tip about pinholes.  This beast is made of 3/16" plate but there are some welded areas I need to check.

I'm having a great time tinkering with this.  I can't be too slow though, I have an HP B12 to restore and a Thumbler Ultra-Vibe 45 I need to get too. ( and a half dozen other pieces of history too)

[Grayco]

I do need to name it.  I hate this but when I look at it the sump reminds me of a cows udder.  I has occurred to me to paint it up like a jersey cow... YUK... NOOO! I can't do it!

    Could you imagine it!  YIKES!

[peruano]

Here's my bread tray belt guard.  A bit of hack saw work and a couple of brackets worked for me.



And the motorcycle fender.

This is a better view of the belt guard, but with a previous incarnation of a cover

[Ryaly2dogs]

Love that cow paint scheme; had a great chuckle.  The fender as splash guard is a solid solution; I have done similar on my 18" saw. I had never thought of milk crate as belt guard...genius! Will have to work on that solution a bit; as one of my saws has exposed belts.

Glad to hear of your HP B12; those are built like tanks and will last forever. I learned on those as a kid alongside my grandpa and got spoiled with those 8" wheels. Enjoy the process, you seem to be working with some serious raw materials and creativity.

Carpe diem.

David

[Grayco]

   Just a quick progress report and a question.....

I cleaned out the saw.  I removed the carriage drive and engagement mechanism.  I removed the spindle.

The carriage drive screw bearings were totally wasted.  25 years ago I was working for Hewlett Packard in Boise.

A decision was made to throw away all spare parts that hadn't been used within 3 years.  I found a bunch of new bearings in the dumpster, so I loaded my pockets.  It just so happened that a few of those bearings were 5/8" self aligning bearing inserts. It also just happened that those inserts were the perfect replacements for the failed inserts in my 2 bolt flange bearings      SCORE! So I have new bearings in my drive screw!

The spindle bearings had sat with water in them and were bad.  I replaced them.

I have painted the outside of the saw with Rust-oleum rosemary green hammered finish paint and the inside with silver hammered finish paint.

I reinstalled the spindle tonight.  I took some measurements that I think are good but I would appreciate your opinion.

I installed a 20 inch blade and measured the runout at .016" 1-1/2" from the edge.
I also measured the parallelity of the blade to the vise slide.  It was just a bit less than .004" out across about 16"

Those numbers seem good to me for a 20" rock saw, but this is my first 20" saw so I'm not sure.  What do you think?

[peruano]

Congratulations.  It's nice to save things from obscurity (rocks and bearings).  I once fabricated a bracket for mounting a custom  motorcycle gas tank from a brace salvaged from an HP Printer.  Its the strongest bracket yet deployed for a 200 cc motorcycle and probably the most extensively engineered (at least in its HP incarnation).  Its good to hear the saw is rising from the ashes. 

[Grayco]

Congratulations.  It's nice to save things from obscurity (rocks and bearings).  I once fabricated a bracket for mounting a custom  motorcycle gas tank from a brace salvaged from an HP Printer.  Its the strongest bracket yet deployed for a 200 cc motorcycle and probably the most extensively engineered (at least in its HP incarnation).  Its good to hear the saw is rising from the ashes.

While I was at HP, they hired an expert to tell them how to save money building desktop printers.  The expert started his presentation by standing on top of one of HP's newest printers and asked "Are you building printers or step stools?  HP had so overdesigned the printer housings that you could actually stand on one without breaking it.  HP use to gold plate ALL traces on their circuit boards not just the connection fingers but every trace 100%.  It was a different company then.

I'll be posting pictures of this 20" saw and the 12" I have saved.  I still have a half dozen relics in the cue. Grinders, saws, polishers, sanders and of course tumblers.

[Steve Ramsdell]

This is a project!  For the lid and belt cover I would try to find a person that does duct work.  For my small needs I find it is easier to either trade  or just pay rather than get yet another set of tools.  That chain drive is something unusual in the mid-west.

[Grayco]

This is a project!  For the lid and belt cover I would try to find a person that does duct work.  For my small needs I find it is easier to either trade  or just pay rather than get yet another set of tools.  That chain drive is something unusual in the mid-west.

I thought about HVAC ducting but I think I'm going to go with wood and I may mix some 1/2 16 expanded metal in with it.  I think it will look good, be functional and fairly easy to build.

The chain drive is different.  I like the slip clutch and as long as the chain stays lubed it should work great.

I just bought a 25# Brazilian agate last weekend.  I can hardly wait to see the inside of that thing! COME ON SAW!  GET DONE!

[Grayco]

Good Day Everyone,
Just a quick update on this saw.  I have it cleaned and painted.  I replaced the spindle bearings and the carriage drive bearings. 

I found the motor was never mounted correctly,. It was just held on with one bolt, so I Installed four studs to set the motor on.
The existing drive belt was to short so I replaced it with a belt that is tight in the loosest motor position.

After I assembled everything, I checked the blade/carriage alignment.  I was .020" out across 17".
I added a strip of .0045" aluminum tape to one side of my spindle mount and....... WOW! less than .001" across 18".  That is AWESOME!

Now I'm installing all new electrical.  I going to bring the power in the back instead of the front.

After that it will be time for making belt and chain guards.

I'll post some pictures in a new thread soon.

[Grayco]

Here's an update on my progress.
I have cleaned and painted the saw. 
I replaced the drive bearings and the spindle bearings.
I reconfigured the wiring to the back of the saw. 
I replaced the cut off switch housing on the front of the saw.
I built and installed a belt guard
I remounted the motor and changed the drive pulley to get ~3100 FPS on my 20" blade.

and...............................   I cut my first rock with it!

I still need to replace the wheels and build a chain guard for the feed drive